Ditching Hourly

Hello and welcome to Ditching Hourly. I’m Jonathan Stark. Today I am joined by Andrew Crosdale. Andrew, welcome to the show.

Thanks, Jonathan. Great to have to be here.

Cool. Well, Andrew’s got a very interesting background and is, uh, well, I don’t want to put words in your mouth. Andrew, could you tell folks a little bit about who you are and what you do?

Andrew’s Background in Policing
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Yeah, so my. My background, I suppose, is, is, uh, in policing, British policing. Uh, I spent a little over 30 years in, uh, policing and counter terrorism policing. Uh, I, I retired from that two and a half years ago now, when I began my business. Uh, which is, has a, uh, independent consultant advisor helping businesses enhance their governance, integrity, and operational excellence using principles from counterterrorism policing, uh, and the businesses then benefit from being able to enjoy smooth, uh, Team operations and the solid foundations from which to scale essentially.

Cool.

Transition to Consulting
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And what caused you to want to start consulting? Of all the different things you could have done.

Yeah, good question I’m sure there’ll be more good questions but um, I I a lot of people go back into the police once they have retired as a police officer to go back in as what we would Call a kind of support member of staff. But for me, I Really wanted to change and I wanted to, I wanted to go into business and see what I could do with everything I’d learned in the business world for that kind of variety, that, that change of scenery, change of, of kind of paradigm.

And what I really enjoyed in the police and became very good at was Developing high performing teams. I had a number of experiences that go back to when I was eight years old, living in Mexico, experiencing corrupt policing that probably began my career. Um, but having learnt and got the scars and climb the mountains.

To understand exactly how to create high performing environments, uh, I think is the best way to describe it. Then that I recognize that that was extremely valuable and friends and entrepreneurs that I know said you would be incredibly valuable in the business world. And so that was my love is improvement, real impact.

And so if I can be a consultant and bring that knowledge, uh, share all that learning and it fast tracks the performance of businesses for, for their leadership teams and owners, then that sounds like I’ve got Everything that I want out of life really and, and, and one of those actually is that feeling of, um, self worth, that feeling of you’re still important to the world, you can still give something, give something back because I, I kind of fell off a bit of a cliff edge having looked forward for so many years to, to leaving the police.

On the Friday I left and kind of by the Monday I felt, Oh my God, I’m outside this huge institution that I’ve belonged to for three decades from kind of boy to father of two and yeah, a bit of an identity, uh, change. So I, I, you know, I needed to do something worthwhile.

And did you have exposure perhaps in your family or maybe through the friends that you mentioned to what it What running a business is like or entrepreneurship? Had you gone to business school at any point, you know, like how much how cold were you? I guess is really the question how much help did you have getting started?

Yeah, so I have got a number of friends who’ve got their own businesses, and it’s an interesting point actually that not many of them would probably concede what I suspect is going on in most businesses, which is their teams operate at a fairly functional, mediocre level. If you’re lucky, they might operate at a good level, but rarely at that kind of great level, What I believe you can get them up to and have done that in, in policing. So probably not a lot of learning from, from friends, but my experiences. And again, these go back to childhood. If we go there are that when customer service is delivered to a high standard, it makes such a difference to people’s lives. Whether that’s, you know, you’re a victim of crime, whether you are in receipt of health care support, whether you just go into a coffee shop for a cup of coffee, the smile you get The clean cup, the clean tables, the, you know, the, the atmosphere, the place itself, these things make a really big difference.

Um, that’s really important to me. I really value that. So I could see that I think in most of my experiences, it’s not great. Um, and then I kind of put myself into a couple of business courses and, and then got to know various entrepreneurs who, um, who, yeah, give me an also a little bit of feedback that said, yeah, you can make a real difference here.

So what were the first things you did when you made this decision?

First Steps in Business
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Was it it sounded like you went took some courses or what were what were some of the first steps you took?

Uh, some of the first steps were probably a really basic level around, uh, a little bit of branding, a little bit of website, um, understanding that, um, actually you want to get the three circles lined up, which is what are you passionate about? What have you got some skills or experience in? And what’s commercially valuable and the sweet spot is in the middle.

So just, just sense check that because it is difficult starting out in business, particularly for, uh, people like your audience and myself who were starting out on their own. There can be sometimes periods of little feedback from all the effort that you’re putting into marketing or developing your positioning, and you need to really love what you do to keep you going and moving forward through those difficult times.

First Client Experience
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So, um, those were, those were probably some of the first, um, and then I suppose the first customer came within maybe a couple of months of leaving the police when I was just in a kitchens and bathroom showroom. And he came up to me, did the owner, and I was just buying some tiles and the showroom just looked fantastic.

And I commented on it and he said, Oh, that’s really nice of you to say that. I said, I, I’m the owner actually. So we got into a conversation and subsequently he became my, my first customer.

was gonna, that’s my next question. I couldn’t have guessed that answer. That’s for sure. And what did you, when you had that conversation with him, did you have a package or an offer or some sort of structure to, to what you would be delivering? Or was it kind of like, hey, you’re my first customer. Let’s figure this out.

Yeah, probably more towards the latter, if I’m, if I’m completely honest, um, I’ve been on a business course. I’ve spoken to a lot of people, but I think, uh, for me and certainly others that I’ve spoken to your head is a jumble of lots of information and it hasn’t quite kind of wired it all together. Put it in its place and actually for you understood what works for you.

You receive lots of advice, but actually some of that’s not relevant either for your stage or for your type of work. So I think I have quite a lot of things kind of swimming around in my head. And I think what I was thinking is just make it to a next, the next meeting. So I tried to take the kind of pressure off and say, look, you know, if you’re at all interested, let’s just have a conversation.

There’s no pressure at all. And so we had that second conversation and I talked about some of my background. Um, we had, I think I’ve done a third conversation and then he said, yeah, okay, let’s go for it. The first, I think the first, the first, uh, fee was 5, 000 pounds for. Essentially, a kind of 12 month program meeting a couple of times a month for an hour or so.

And I think I rolled in and gave, I gave a few more things for free in terms of I gave a couple of. coaching sessions, I think, to, to, to begin with, um, until we started the program for real. And then I spotted as we went along that there were other things that he needed help with. So I, I thought, well, hey, look, you know, I can actually do this for you.

If, if you want, I can give you a price and they’re going to say, well, I’m sold that I need it. So, so yeah, let me know. So I, I put together a, uh, I think another sort of five grand price, laid everything out that I would do. I’ve obviously made the point that it’s, you know, I’m, I’m very experienced in this, I can do it to a better standard, I can do it much quicker, and it can be up and running in your business a lot quicker.

Uh, and, and so I went for that. So I, I turned my first sale from 5, 000 into 10, 000, uh, in the first year. So I felt quite pleased with myself actually.

That’s a good start. So you mentioned that the store was in great shape. What, what was the thing that he felt like he needed when he found out what it was that you could do?

Yeah, well, at the time I, I was definitely pushing myself to, you know, obviously in policing, you’re not used to sales, you are selling, um, crime prevention. You are selling the benefits of the witness going to court and doing the right thing, but you’re not selling, um, you know, for, for kind of money. So it was, it was a new thing for me to, to get used to.

Challenges of Small Business Owners
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And I was, I was definitely trying to push myself, but having sat down with him, I think what I identified was that it can be quite a lonely place can being a business owner, particularly a small sort of business owner where he was the only leader. You know, having been there myself in policing and recognizing how difficult it can be when when there’s just you, um, it quickly came out of the conversation that he He longed for that support and was missing it. And, you know, I like to think I’m a pretty approachable guy, easy to talk to, naturally kind of quite supportive.

And I think he identified that. And then, um, when I talked about my background and some of the things I’ve achieved, he said that was the thing that convinced me. You’re, you’re, uh, supportive, approachable, and knowing what you’ve done. I was a bit reserved about how can you possibly help me run my business better than me, having come from the policing, but then later accepted that actually the principles of strategic leadership, of building high performance environments, of good governance and integrity and trust in the business.

Actually, I can see how that then can pass across from policing into the private business. So, yeah, I think he was just looking for more structure. He said, you know, he gave me more structure. You gave me a more stability, financial stability for the future, um, and just a really good, um, strong level of support, really, for whatever was going on.

Because it was funny, sometimes we’d have conversations and they’d say, oh, this is rubbish, this is terrible, this is going wrong, that’s going wrong, he’s just not understanding this, and it was like the world’s coming to an end. It’s almost like I would spend the time just kind of trying to put his head back together and settle it down. And then we’d develop some plans for how we’re going to manage these problems. I’d be like, right, I’m rubbing my hands now because I love sorting these people problems out. And then we’d meet again in two weeks time and they’d say, Oh, everything’s absolutely brilliant. Yeah. Oh, no, we don’t need to do that.

We don’t need to do this. So I suppose that is the, that is the gig that we take on, isn’t it? That we, we’re there to, To help people with various things, but that in their own heads, life’s going up and down and you’ve got to somehow absorb that and still, and still work with that to, to help their business improve in some way.

So he was a sole owner, no partners and was probably like a lot of small business owners like really, you know, perhaps married or whatever, but you can’t really complain about your day to your employees or your spouse. You’re certainly not going to go on social media. So it sounds like a big piece of this was that he really had no one to talk to about the things he was struggling with as a small business owner.

Is that true? Am I saying that back right?

Yeah, I’d say so. Yeah, it was, um, as you say, was married and, and had, um, Yeah. Uh, no sort of business partner as such, but felt, I don’t think he wanted to talk about work once he kind of got home, he felt that’s the time for the, for the young children and, and his wife. Um, and I think what I’ve come across is that smaller business owners often were in a business working for somebody else and became good at something and then decided to jump ship and set up their own business, but actually never received any leadership training or even any leadership.

exposure to the problems, because then suddenly you’ve got a team of people to manage and it is difficult and you are tested in all sorts of ways. So to try and run the business and pay all the bills and all the additional new costs that you’ve now got, the fixed costs, without anybody to, to give you that support.

is actually really a big ask. So I’ve, I’ve, um, I’ve consulted with a few small business owners now who it’s only them. And definitely that’s a big part of it is that actually I’ve found myself here because I’m good at the, at the, at the trade craft, but, but suddenly realized the blind spot is no kind of leadership, governance, um, support around how you actually run the business.

How big of a team did this particular client have?

Um, his team was probably. without suppliers 8, 8, 10.

Is that kind of a sweet spot for you? Do you think, I know it’s only been a couple of years, but,

Yeah, I’m, I’m, I’m still, I’m still not settled on that, to be honest. In some ways, I think when you start to get to around the 20 mark, then running things fairly informally as. Normally happens below that starts not to work. You start to need now a deputy, you start to need some structure to the business in order to be able to, to get above 20 and not have continual kind of problems and snags and, and be just getting immersed in the day to day grind of the business.

Um, but actually some, some, um, some people I know in, in the, in the business world, in these kind of entrepreneur groups that I’m in think that I should be more. And I have worked for some bigger businesses, but think that my, my background is, is bigger than just team performance. It’s more about governance and trust and integrity and the, the more holistic structure of the organization.

So yeah, still, still, still fathoming that one out really to find out because I’m very much determined to, to not chase where the money is to be guided by where I get the greatest fulfillment and make the greatest impact.

In law enforcement, like totally different environment, different culture. Hmm.

Yeah, very much so. Um, you know, my teams, I probably began in leadership around the age of maybe 25, Uh, teams of maybe 10 to 20. Um, I finished as a Chief Inspector at the British Counterterrorism Headquarters in London, where I had only a team of maybe 6 or 7, but my job was to be the national lead for a particular aspect, where I was trying to influence a quarter of a million.

People and so building the accountability structures, the governance boards. How could we, you know, how could I get through all the layers of, of managers and ranks through to those people on the front line to allow us to out, to be better identifying risk so that we could manage the risks so we could beat the public safe.

So yeah, um, a different, uh, challenge, but in many ways, what I do, I think can be scaled up or down quite easily. It’s about. As I say, good governance can work in a, in a team of 10, um, as much as it can work in, in, you know, teams of, of hundreds. Um, it’s just, it’s just a slightly, it’s just a slightly bigger version.

Um, so yeah, it was very different. The, the, um, you know, you go from. The things that you do potentially could save lives to might sell, sell more kitchens or bathrooms or, um, deliver a greater, um, cleaning service or, um, better designed websites and digital services. So it is different, but I really enjoy the, I really enjoy the change actually.

Um, still very much lots to learn. But I have a huge amount of enthusiasm for the difference that people can make. And I know, um, particularly from your lens, that software and tech can make a huge difference to the efficiency and effectiveness of businesses. But I’m also a big believer that customers are still people.

There’s people behind tech. And therefore, The biggest contribution I think I can make to the world is to help business owners and leadership teams be able to inspire the best from their people so that customers can enjoy the best service.

Wow. That’s a great line. Write that down. That’s very

Thank you.

Defining Governance and Leadership
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So let’s talk about this word governance. Cause it’s a word I’ve almost never heard. Especially in business or not, especially in business. It’s not a word that comes up that much in my circles. I think I’ve only heard one other person ever say it. So yeah, maybe it’s a, maybe it’s a United States thing. I don’t know, but is, what’s the difference between governance and leadership?

So governance, I would say, is more about the, the structure that you put in place. So, um, so one of my, I’ve got a kind of five step method of supporting businesses. The first thing I would do is, is kind of have an hour conversation with the business owner. Then if they wanted to proceed, roll into a. Okay.

A diagnostic, um, where over several weeks I would look at the business. And the, the things that I’m looking at is number one, um, what I call fortify identity. So that is what does your business identity look like? Have you got a clear, meaningful, uh, inspirational. Uh, mission that not, uh, not from the customer’s point of view, actually, but from your team’s point of view, is this going to light them up and make them feel we’re doing something special?

Uh, have they got, have you got the, um, the values wrapped around it then that, um, support that mission, that are the values that your customers would expect, that your team would see are right, that you would then use for recruiting, and, Uh, And training your people and performance managing them. So, so that’s like, I would say one layer, almost probably the bottom layer, if you think of it as a pyramid, the bottom layer of good governance is, are we really clear about who we are, who we serve, what we do, what our mission is, what is the horizon that we’re aiming for?

What are we doing to contribute towards that, that kind of big vision? And have we got the right values wrapped around it? And I’ve come across companies that have got these things, but they’ve got them several times over. I made the point to one company that you have, um, 15 different mission, vision and value statements it’s all right having something on paper, but it’s got to be brought to life in the workplace.

So it’s got to be part of the conversation. It’s got to be part of the sales process. It’s got to be part of performance. Management meetings with individuals, because if it isn’t, it quickly gets forgotten and it does become that post on the wall. So, um, I know I’m probably drifting off track a little bit here, but

no, not at

an example of. That Fortify Identity will be an example of the kind of foundation stone of what are we about and is it really clear to all our people because if it’s not, then we’re starting to dilute the alignment and we want to have really strong alignment between customers, our team, and our leadership and the stronger that is, the better.

The more efficient, the more effective will be, the more productive will be, the better the quality of service. And so there are several other layers that I go through which include things like, have we got a continuous improvements process built into the company rather than just responding to complaints and begrudgingly having to look at changing something?

Have we got really clear strategic objectives that are not too many? Like I’ve had a boss in the past, probably several actually, that just couldn’t, couldn’t help but start adding, oh well let’s add a fourth, let’s add a fifth, let’s add a sixth. Before we knew it, we moved forward at a snail’s pace, never achieved any of them.

Which is just not good for the soul. It’s not good for your people because they don’t get that kind of dopamine hit off. Oh, right. Great. We achieved that milestone. We’ve achieved that annual goal. So, again, good governance, I would say, is being realistic about what you can achieve. Yeah, let’s stretch the team, but let’s not be so ambitious, that we put it out of reach and people then give up, they, you know, we want to inspire them feel that they can reach this.

Um, and then a couple of the kind of strategic areas will be around precision of execution. Have you, have you built your role profiles and your expectation of all your roles very precisely so that people really viscerally understand the difference between what does average performance look like in role, what does good performance look like in role?

But what does great performance look like in role? Cause that’s what we’re aiming for, but if they don’t understand it, they can’t see it and feel it, then they’re never going to achieve it. So as your good governance got that built in and communicated effectively verbally and in writing, and it forms part of the, as I said, the sort of performance meetings so that managers can lift the.

The performance of every individual. Uh, and then the last step that I go through really is I’m looking at tactical leadership and communication. So what are the different levels of communication? How do we communicate? What does that alignment look like? And our managers being, um, are they too, too micromanagement or are they too absent, too absent, this insufficient direction and support micromanaging you crush individual flair.

So have they got that right balance? That’s what I’m looking for. Yeah.

as a governance structure creates this high performing environment? You early on, you briefly mentioned the word environment, like high performing environment instead of high performing team. That’s interesting. And is that, is that basically what you’re talking about?

Yeah.

It is. Yeah. Um, you know, I would say that the things that I’ve just gone through there, uh, are. things that leaders need to put in place. So it is leadership. But I think, um, that the better description is it’s about good governance. How are we governing our team? And that’s of course, my, my background is a heck of a lot of scrutiny from the media, from, um, various bodies that oversee the police, from the public, from focus groups.

So everything we do is, is, highly scrutinized, so we need to make sure that it is healthy, transparent, um, and, and we would use the sort of term, uh, good governance. So I think, um, leadership is, is, it’s your responsibilities, it’s things that you need to do. Governance is more about the structure that you, if I walked into a company, I’d say, oh, that company’s got good governance, it’s got the things in place that if the leaders changed, new leaders walked in, they would walk into a That was, um, hopefully it would, is one of good governance.

And I think what it, what, what that then produces is an environment. Good governance then produces an environment around the team that inspires them and nudges them to operate at their best. So if you know exactly what’s expected of you. as an individual and you know exactly what the strategic goals are for the company that year and you know exactly what the identity of the company is, its values, its mission, who its customers are, what values they expect and you know that you’re going to be, um, spoken to about your performance in a supportive way, you know, what, how do you compare to the benchmarks that we’ve set, what can we do to help you improve, um, then you have wrapped that environment around them that’s going to Encourage them to operate at their best.

And if they are, you know, if they’ve got the wrong mindset, then there will be nudged to improve. And if they can’t improve, then my view is time to move on.

Right. So it sounds like it’s a combination of policies, procedures, systems, all in support of a clear vision, mission, values, that sort of thing. Is that pretty accurate?

Yeah, I’d say it’s, I mean, it’s quite holistic and it’s quite comprehensive and I think in some ways that, that makes it quite difficult for me to communicate because you, you come across businesses that might just focus on purely branding, which you could say is, is a little bit like the, uh, the identity step, but because it’s so holistic, if you imagine my experiences.

Parachuted into one team there for a couple of years out parachuted into another. So you get used to looking at the, the comprehensive governance and environment that is there for that group of people to, to achieve those particular policing goals. So yeah, I think it’s about strategy, governance, leadership, um, systems, processes, uh, policy.

Yeah, I think it’s, it’s all, all of those rolled in really.

So if you, if you were going to parachute into a new company, a knitting store, let’s say that had 20, yeah, call it 20 employees. And you’d have a conversation. What would like, what would you look for to determine what their current state is?

Diagnostic Approach in Consulting
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They’re like this diagnostic step.

Hmm. So it kind of relies to a large degree on how transparent the company are willing to be. And that isn’t just The CEO, for example, that’s got a, that’s got to go down through, through the leadership ranks. Um, the more people want to protect themselves or their, their ego, uh, as I’ve experienced in the past, then, you know, I can only.

judge you, uh, benchmark you on, on what I can say. So I asked them if they will, they will be transparent with me as the, uh, the decision maker or the, the key sort of point of contact for me in the company. And then I will chat through the kind of things that I’ve been talking to you about to find out from them, how do things, how do things look?

We might, Can I use scalar type descriptions? So I might say, Jonathan, for example, in your company on a scale of one to ten, how clear would you say your strategic goals are? And by that I mean, how many have you got? Uh, where are they written down? Have they been communicated to the team? How has it been communicated to the team?

Has it been a two way conversation? Has it just been sent by email? I would have that, those kind of questions. Um, and then I would have similar questions with perhaps, uh, depending on how big the company is with, uh, more junior leaders through to the team on the front line. And then I would start to get a sense of, um, Where are the gaps?

Um, because this is, this has got to reach the, you know, if we’ve got a clear objective from, from the CEO, is that being cascaded down through the company? And is it actually affecting the different line? Ben, I would, I would ask to look at, um, you know, the kind of vision, mission values, those kinds of, uh, documents, uh, try and find out where they are.

Um, have a look for myself. Uh, and again, uh, through questioning of the, the team. Try and find out if it’s permeating through to the to the front line.

Do you do typically do all individual meetings like this or do you do sort of group workshop sessions?

Um, i’ve i’ve done both really, um, again, it depends where the company is, uh, in respect of my sort of location or whether it’s, whether it’s via Zoom, how big the company is. Um, but as I say, I’ve, I’ve kind of done both really. And I mean, I, I did some work for in, in this country, what’s called His Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary Fire and Rescue.

And that is like an independent body that works on behalf of the government, but it’s independent from government and policing. And it goes into police forces and it asks questions of police leaders and frontline.

Cross-Referencing in Police Work
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And there’s a, there’s a system that’s used to try and, um, cross reference what one person’s saying through to, through the others.

So I’ve had that experience of working across, Police forces. It’s really a similar method of trying to extract and cross reference. This information is what’s being told to me. You know, yes, we’re brilliant. We’re 10 out of 10.

Challenges in Communicating Strategic Objectives
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We’ve got three strategic objectives. We’ve been communicating clearly in writing.

They’re on our website and we’ve spoken to our staff about them. And then you speak to the team. They say, Oh, that’s the first time I’ve heard about that strategic objective. So,

Exactly.

um, yeah.

Overcoming Ego for Improvement
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Yeah, and, and, and, you know, that’s part of the, the job, uh, is to persuade leaders to somehow get over that ego. And actually, the more we can find, the more you can improve, but you’ve got to somehow get over that, that ego, that sense of, um, am I going to be to blame for this?

The more they can get past that, the more they will benefit.

Interesting.

Psychological Differences in Large vs. Small Organizations
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So I would, I would think that working with really large organizations, especially someone who’s not at the top of the organization, someone who’s kind of in the middle somewhere, especially Versus working with the owner of a business who’s directly feeling the impact of this kind of lack of structure, low performance, you know, they’re, they’re probably overworked or at least overstressed, very different psychological situation than someone who’s perhaps trying to cover their bacon.

Mm.

that somebody is not going to, so they’re not going to get in trouble. Like, I remember a story once where I was talking to a consultant, they identified the consultant, identified a, an inefficiency, systemic inefficiency inside of a large pharmaceutical company that was costing them 4 million.

It was like million dollars a year, millions of dollars a year. He was really excited because he was like going to put together a value price proposal to address this concern. And it was going to be a clear win of millions of dollars. And it never got approved because the person who was responsible for the inefficiency was afraid that they were going to get fired.

So they just continued to lose the millions and the problem remained.

Resistance to Change in Large Companies
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But if you’re the owner of a tile store with 10 employees, And you’re working 80 hours a week, and you know that it feels like all you do is put out fires. The idea of someone coming in to, to help them set up a structure, give them some support, perhaps smooth out their pipeline, give them a little bit more financial stability.

That seems like a done deal, like a slam dunk, you know, yes, please, you know, I’m so glad I met you. That kind of stuff. Is that, am I, is that, am I totally off base there or has that been your experience as well?

Yeah, no, that, that, that rings true for, for me, albeit my experience is probably quite limited compared to yours, but yeah, it’s, it’s a, it’s a cleaner, straighter edge, isn’t it? I’m the owner of this business. This is difficult. I’m the decision maker come in, make this easier for me. And make the, the, um, operation more efficient and effective.

And that drops through to the profitability profitability. Um, when you get into companies and there’s all sorts of careers, career paths taking place, um, potential, uh, individuals that may be responsible for not pushing something forward. You are entering a whole new lion’s den. And I have found definitely resistance amongst, um, I can think of one company, uh, the, the.

Co owner wanted me in, wanted me to make a difference. The chief operating officer was, uh, appeared very much up for it. Uh, The directors, I settled them down. The directors underneath the chief operating officer seemed fine. I was kind of talking in language of this isn’t about blame. This isn’t about individuals.

This is just about an extra pair of eyes, ears, and an extra brain to plug into how we can improve customer service and improve customer retention. And they were all fine. When I started to ask more probing questions. You could just see the atmosphere just started to change, and they dried up more. So for example, um, we had a situation where I started to identify individuals or, or particular jobs that had got poor reviews from the customers, and so I’d say, Okay, who’s this individual that’s, that’s delivered this job?

Oh, it’s so and so. Okay, right. So, have they had any complaints other than this one? Uh, I don’t know. Yeah, two or three actually. Okay, how long have they worked for the company? Uh, about three or four months. Okay, so we’ve got a problem here. We’ve got somebody who’s only been here months and they’ve already got three or four complaints.

So, just talk me through, what have we done about this individual? silence and this is all over email because so I kind of chased up against it look guys um I can only kind of help with this if if we can kind of get to the bottom and if it’s nothing that’s fine Just tell me but then we know why and what’s not happening and we can put the process in place to address it still silence Shortly after, the, uh, Chief Operating Officer, a couple of weeks later, said, um, Oh, we’ve, we’ve had a bit of a meeting, and, um, the directors have just asked if I could, if they could have some space, because they feel they just need to kind of work this through on their own, and, and, and I feel like I should give them the space.

I’m like, right, we’ve got the tail wagging the dog here. It’s starting, we’re starting to get close to the problem, and,

I see what you mean.

the, the, the, the ability to be braver and say, okay, I’m fine, uh, with being able to admit mistakes or the absence of something, um, and get past it. But actually the, the, the psychology was no, let’s try and just clamp down because it’s the consultant that’s the problem here is going to shine a light where we don’t want the light shining.

The Importance of Psychological Safety
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Um, so yeah, but I mean, I think, I think, was it Google that did a, that did a. Some kind of project where they established that one of the most, um, one of the most impactive things for teams or for the performance of a business is for teams to feel that they had psychological safety in the workplace, that they could admit their mistakes.

They could concede where they might have done better, um, without any kind of blame or being crushed or humiliated. Uh, and that encouraged a whole different culture that was around improvement and, you know, the subtle improvements that, that. You know, compound to make a big difference. So,

Mm-hmm

so, yeah, and I think in that instance, clearly, they are somewhere from that.

Yeah, so

Wow. So how, just outta curiosity that, in that example, how big a company was that Headcount

they had about

And, and what do you,

employees.

or starting to circle in on?

Choosing the Right Company Size to Work With
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your favorite company size, any kind of, any kind of commonality in the sorts of clients that you think you’d want to prefer to work with for the next year or two? Is it more in these 10 or 20, you know, like stage companies at a stage where they’ve got maybe 10 or 20 people in there, they’re, they can’t grow, they’re not happy.

You’re working directly with the owner. It’s very, um, Perhaps top down is not the right phrase, but you have the person who can make all the decisions kind of in, you know, you’re in their ear

Yeah,

a 500 person company or a huge organization where this, I mean, there’s just got to be way more politics, way more red tape, way more ego.

Way more fear

Yeah.

it’s more satisfying and you’ll have a bigger impact because you’re changing the lives of 500 people instead Of 20, but you know, do you are you gravitating toward one of those or you like them both?

Balancing Impact and Satisfaction
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Yeah, for me, Jonathan, the jury’s very much still out because I, I get really excited when I find problems. So in the 500 company, um, they paid me a few thousand pounds to spend a week looking at the company. Um, and I did that, spoke to a few people, looked at their. Communications looked at, um, a few things and put together a report which had 27 things I identified that they could improve that would all feed through to the, to the bottom line.

Um, so I, I was, my hair was on fire. I was loving it. I love the fact I found all these problems. I knew exactly what to do to put them right. So I was, I was loving it. But then suddenly, you know, the, the kind of the ship ground to a halt because of the politics and the layers of, of management and careers and, and all that.

So actually I found it quite frustrating in the end, lift that across into a smaller business and there’s much. You know, there’s much less impact. So you imagine if I, if I’ve been able to fully implement all the things that I’d, um, uh, identified in that company, I’m convinced they would have made millions more.

I could just, I could just see, I mean, we even agreed that at the start of the engagement, um, after the, after the diagnostic that I’d done now, smaller businesses are probably not going to have that kind of impact and you’re not going to find as many things. So it’s less satisfying in terms of the volume of problems and the impact that you feel you’re going to have.

But the cleaner edge of just having a business owner, you’re speaking to them, they’re the decision maker, whatever you agree between you is going to happen. That of course is, is what you’re after. So if I could somehow mold the two, then that would be, be perfect. But you know, that’s not, that’s not the real world, unfortunately.

So. I’ll, I’ll still keep on, on, uh, doing both and, uh, hope the answer comes clear in time.

you read the book flawless consulting by peter block,

No.

yeah, i’d add that one to my uh, my short list I had the same experience you had. The bigger the companies were that I worked with, the higher my fees went, but the less they implemented anything I suggested. And it started to feel like a complete waste of my time, even though I was getting paid very well.

Yeah.

years later, someone recommended that book to me. And I, I never, I wasn’t doing that kind of work anymore. I never had a chance to try it out. But when I read it, I was like, this is everything I was wrestling with. And I was doing it wrong. So it, you know, I’m sure it’s not a silver bullet, but I think you might like it. Here’s a question for you. Yes. By Peter Block. Yeah. So I’m curious, you’re, are you, you a soloist, right? Just one, no employees, nothing like that.

Yep. Just make, oof,

have these sort of governance structures in place for yourself? Or is it purely the kind of thing that is for like an organization of people?

that is a, that is an interesting question. Um, I probably haven’t got, I probably haven’t got them all. Um, wouldn’t have them all because I haven’t got the team. Um, even in terms of suppliers, um, I wouldn’t say that some of the steps are, are, are appropriate. Um, it’s really, it’s designed that the whole, the methodology is really designed around how do you as a leader, through Potentially other leaders create the structure and that, that structure and environment that will get the best of your people, even when you’re not there.

So obviously it’s, it’s designed around, um, businesses with teams.

Right. I didn’t, I didn’t, I asked not to put you on the spot, but because most people listening don’t have employees.

Implementing Values in Solopreneurship
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So I’m wondering if there’s some advice you’d give them in terms of like what steps or what portions of this. So, I mean, if you zoom out, you said, that’s something I really liked, which was that a big piece of this is.

Creating a tight alignment between the customers, the leadership and the team. And I could imagine there are plenty of people out there who have let exactly, like you said, there becomes some sort of master of a trade or a craft. And they, at an, at an employment type of situation, they decide to go solo.

They do the craft. Perhaps by the hour, perhaps some other way. Uh, but they’re not thinking about hiring. Um, there, but they’re also not thinking about other big strategic business things. They’re just doing react development, or they’re just, you know, tiling floors at a high level of quality and excellence, but they’ve not, there’s no business there yet.

There’s no structure there. So are there pieces of this? I know I’m sort of, this is sort of on the fly for you, but like, are there pieces that people could implement on their own? In a way that that would help create that title in between at least them and their customers or clients.

definitely, that, that’s a clever question to say what, what bits could you lift out of it that would be good for solo preneurs. I think, I think the The identity is really important, so to understand really clearly what you do, and who you do it for, and what problem you solve, and what maybe the symptoms are that they may be experiencing if they are not solution aware, um, that you have, you know, established your values, I think, if nothing else, that are true to you, which then allows Thank you very much.

customers to understand who you, what do you stand for? And actually you’re my sort of person because you know, we need to get on with the people that we are, we are working with. And so our values, I think is a, is a good way of, um, understanding that you are the right fit for each other. Um, continuous improvement, I think is definitely something that we can Use not just as a larger company with teams, but as individuals.

I always say to every one of my clients, I want you to be brutally honest with me. I don’t want you to just say the nice things. If you’ve got some compliments, then yes, that that’s great. But actually I’m more interested in what’s the, what’s the half a percent better that I could have been in some way, you know, is it more supportive?

Is it a little bit more time? Is it, um, explaining something? Is it the language that I’ve used? Wasn’t as clear as it could be. So I think, yeah, we, we, we should, um, we should be committed to that notion of continual improvement. Um, those are probably the biggest two I’d say.

All right. So for folks listening as we’re wrapping up here. So you’re getting up to time. This is gonna sound maybe you have no answer for this.

Defining Mission and Values
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It sounds like a stupid question, but I still want to ask, is there an exercise that the dear listener could go through to determine what their values are? And when I’ve done this with people, I’ve never done it with like, I don’t, there’s probably some framework for doing this that I’m not aware of.

But whenever I asked this of people, they don’t know where to start. Like, they don’t know what it is. Kind of like what altitude to attack it from, you know, like, is there, is there a sort of a process that you would take a CEO through to determine what their business, well, I guess their values are probably infused into the business.

So how would you walk somebody through that? How many should you end up with? How grandiose should they be?

So the process I would normally follow would be something like, um, because I really think it’s important. I know we’re talking now for. for your audience of, um, perhaps largely solopreneurs, but, um, I would normally involve the team in this, but the first thing I would want to establish is what is your mission?

What is it that, what is it that we do at a really simple level? What do we do and, and, and get that kind of vocalized? Um, And just be directionally correct with it. Don’t worry about, you know, being perfect. Just have a good stab at what you think it is that you do and then think on a, on a kind of real ethical level, what is the difference that doing that contributes to in the, in the bigger world?

So if, you know, for me, if it’s about ethical leadership, improving the performance of businesses so the world can prosper from better service, That’s the big thing that I’m not the only person contributing towards, but that’s the big thing that world’s benefiting from. World prosperity is benefiting from improved performance from teams.

So try and find out what that big vision is. And then when you’ve got those, you’ve kind of got your, you’ve got your horizon, then what it is that you’re looking at and towards. And then I think next, then I would go to the team and say, okay, so what kind of values Would your customers expect from a business that’s delivering that mission towards that vision, that big horizon vision, and then get them to start articulating, okay, well, actually, you know, a lot of our customers, for example, are older people, and they, you know, the need is to kind of walk through it quite slowly, sometimes repeat it, sometimes explain it in different language.

Okay, so is, Is patience and the value that you are? Yeah, definitely. Patience. Yeah, patience. Really important to our customers. So get the team to start thinking about what kind of values do we think customers would want from our business delivering this mission. And then I would ask the team. So what values do you think are important?

You know what the business is doing, and that lights up this kind of other side of their brain that they, you know, not maybe normally used to using. And they think about them, the values that. are important to the business, not them, but, but to the business. And then I’d be turned to the, the owner who, you know, is entitled to steer that business to be, to have the identity that they feel is right.

So integrity is a big part of my background and really important to me. So They are then their values. And then you’ve got this kind of this collection of three buckets. What do we think of the values that are appropriate for the business from the customers from the team and from the leadership? And then when you’ve got those, I think you need to crunch it down to three to five is my opinion.

Great. Uh, advice because any more than that, and it quickly gets forgotten by the team quickly. It’s got forgotten by the customers. Um, particularly from the team point of view, I want them to remember these values. I want it to be part of the day to day operations, the performance meetings, the rewards and recognition so that we’re constantly banging that drum about why these values are important.

But hopefully from from that description, your your audience can pull out. All right, I’ve got a bit of a process there that I can work through to find out it. What do I think they are? And just don’t worry about it being perfect. If it’s directly correct, it’s a really good start. And then you can actually start bouncing off your customers.

Would you mind giving me some feedback? We’ve recently refreshed our vision, mission and values. What do you think? Is there anything that you would add there that you think is missing that’s important to you? So then you can start to refine it and make it better. And then I would recommend reviewing it at least once a year.

Yeah, that does help that the overlap between the clients or customers and whatever your personal set of values, because with a solopreneur, it’s very difficult to see any daylight between the business and the person. And in many ways, that creates a lot of problems. Finance, there’s a lot of problems from that.

It’s like, you just think of it as you, it’s your identity, you just do this thing and it’s you. So. Whenever I’ve done this with people, it usually ends up where it turns it sort of platitudinous, if that’s a word, where they just come up with a dozen things like integrity, simplicity, you know, just like stuff, honesty, you know, self control, perseverance, you know, and it’s this big list of stuff that that no one would say is a bad thing.

Like no one would say, oh, Um, evil genius as a value or something, you know, everybody is going to make this list of things that sound nice. So how do you pare it down? So that’s helpful to imagine getting, you know, of this list of things Dear customer, which ones do you care about from us?

Silence.

An interesting exercise to go through.

I feel like people should be able to answer this. Anyone, any human should be able to, um, not should be able to, like, it shouldn’t be so hard to answer this question. I feel like having these things a little bit closer to the conscious level in your day to day is a useful thing. So that, that might be a good exercise for people to go through.

If you’re like really stumped on like, geez, what are my values? Then it might be a good exercise to go through.

Yeah, I think it does help to try and think of the business as a separate entity, doesn’t it? And think this, this business is, is almost, it’s, it’s, um, it’s another person and what kind of, what kind of values are going to support your mission? And what are the values that your customers would expect? So if, you know, if I’m, if I’m serving a certain type of, of customer, it’s, you know, it’s becoming regularly though that kind of, um, solo that, that sort of, um, business owner with a, with a team of 10 and, you know, they’ve got a, they’ve got a team of 10 that they’re trying to inspire and they’re trying to develop that identity of, of that business.

And they’ve got a regular, um, kind of avatar of customers turning up. As I described earlier, if there were older customers that were coming in, you can start to be led by who, who do is, who’s regularly turning up wanting my support and what, what the kind of things that. That would be really important to them.

And then, let me have that best stab at it. And then, let me start to ask them. And see what, see what they come back with. I think you, with a lot of these things, momentum is the most difficult aspect. And so, to have your best stab at it first, just gives you something then to, to kind of mold and, chisel away at and refine.

Right. Yeah. Can’t steer a parked car. Cool.

Final Thoughts and Contact Information
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Well, this has been fantastic. That’s probably a good place to leave it. Thanks so much for joining me, Andrew. Where can people go to find out more about what you’re doing? Maybe reach out to you, connect on LinkedIn or something like that.

Yeah, LinkedIn’s probably the easiest. Um, fairly unusual surname. Andrew Crowsdale, spelt C R O A S D A L E. Um, I’m on there. Uh, be great to connect with, uh, fellow, um, independent consultants and solopreneurs. Um, need to support each other. You’re doing some great work, Jonathan. So thank you for inviting me on and the good work that you’re doing.

Hey, my pleasure. All right. Thanks again, Andrew.

Thanks, Jonathan.

All right, folks, that’s it for this week. I’m Jonathan Stark, and you’ve been listening to Ditching Hourly. See you next time.