Ditching Hourly

DH 394 Nikki Cross
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Introduction
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Jonathan Stark: Hello and welcome to Ditching Hourly. I'm Jonathan Stark and today I am joined by guest Nikki Cross. Nikki, welcome to the show.

Nikki Cross: Thank you. It's an absolute pleasure to be here.

Jonathan Stark: So we are going to talk about maybe a little bit of a novel approach to podcasting and business books and maybe even some time management. I had a sneaking suspicion that might creep up in there.

Nikki's Inner Work Business
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Jonathan Stark: But first, Nikki, could you tell folks a little bit about who you are and what you do?

Nikki Cross: Yeah, a hundred percent. I am traditionally, I suppose, known as a learning and development facilitator. That's what I do. I do personal development for people in business. So that could be self-employed people. Typically, it is self-employed people, freelancers, coaches, business owners, but some employed people too. That's what I've done for 20 years. It's just that five years ago, I came up with this crazy idea of setting up my own business and then the whole world went into lockdown, which is fun. So I think we're going to go into it today. There's so many ways that you can run a business and facilitate a particular service. The way that I do it is through what we'll talk about today, podcasting, workshops, coaching, and probably we're going to talk a lot about the book club, I imagine as well.

Jonathan Stark: Yeah, I really love novel applications of podcast technology. I'm a super huge, I just love podcasts, especially, I mean, video podcasts are fine, but I'm a huge fan of the audio format. They're just like walking the dog and just driving or whatever. I just think it's a great way to bring in information.

From Public Podcast to Private Book Club
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Jonathan Stark: So I wanted to just, I know nothing really about what you're doing with the podcast other than a short message you sent. So could you just kind of give everyone an overview of the mechanics? Like what is it? Who's it for? And how does it work?

Nikki Cross: Yeah, a hundred percent, of course. I actually credit you for setting up initially my public podcast. So over there, I am 300 and let's call it 350 episodes in. It was from initially consuming your content and just gaining your advice and guidance that I just thought, you know what, we can complicate things so much. And one thing I love about your work is how you really encourage us to just keep it simple. Of course, a lot of my work, it's called the inner work. So sometimes what that simplicity does to us as humans is it forces us to look at our own—can I swear here, Jonathan?

Jonathan Stark: Yeah, go ahead.

Nikki Cross: It forces us to look at our own shit. And so when you sort of force yourself to be simple, you realize, oh, I don't need a couple of episodes back. You were talking specifically about podcasting and actually you don't need a fancy intro and you don't need a thousand pound microphone or dollar microphone. So it all started with my public podcast and my realization. So I called my podcast the inner work conversation. And it's not, I don't, I don't, it's a different format to yours, Jonathan, because I don't do interviews. It's just solo episodes every week, half an hour. That's what people grow to expect. And what I noticed over time is it is a conversation between me and you. I'm so the same as you. I can't advocate for podcasts enough. Unlike video, you can literally pop it in your ears, in the car, then on a walk, then while you're doing the cleaning, while you're doing your bookkeeping. It's so accessible and it feels so intimate and personal that it's just such an amazing way to develop. And so obviously I know that there are entertainment podcasts out there. And it was interesting actually listening to you talk about the one that you'd set up with your family. I didn't know that. But essentially where my book club came from was an amalgamation of podcasting and personal development.

So if I roll back the clock, when I had a proper job in inverted commas, I actually facilitated a book club in that job. I used to get the team together and we would all sort of be doing the same book that month. And then we just come together once a month. I called it an implementation session because to me, what's the point in reading these books if we weren't then going to do something with that? And so this idea was born so many years ago. I'm talking maybe even like 15 years ago. And then when I was in my own business, I stumbled across obviously podcasting through your work. Loved that. And I found someone else online who had cleverly set up a book club, but on a podcast. Now I think in our world of creating new things, coaching, facilitating, training, delivering products and services that are a little bit niche and nuanced, it can be really easy to worry about copying someone or not having an original idea. But actually what I realized, so I'm going to say this in very UK terms, but you'll have to fill in your own, your own shops over there. For us, we have Tesco and we have Asda and they both sell milk and you wouldn't expect to go into one shop and for them to be like, well, we can't sell you milk because they're selling you it over there. So I just thought, you know what, I'm going to take that model and I'm going to cover one business or personal development book every single month and I'll just see, I'll float it out there with my people and see how that goes. And honestly, we've been going for about 18 months now. You can't see it because it's a huge pile of books here. It's a huge pile of books. Yeah. And it started, I think with four people, just the four of us, you know, and it grew and all of a sudden you've got this space where you are developing. I am developing every single week and we'll talk about the mechanics of how I run it. But also I'm being paid to develop. They're listening to me develop and they are developing too. So we're all getting what we want from this weird little way of doing things.

How the Book Club Episodes Work
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Jonathan Stark: Yeah. It's cool. So yeah. How does it work? I'm curious. I can imagine a lot of different ways, but I'd be curious to hear the mechanics of it.

Nikki Cross: So I'm going to go a bit geeky and techie if you don't mind. In learning and development, if you imagine a triangle cut into three, like Maslow's hierarchy of needs, but just three. At the top of the pyramid, you have knowledge, in the middle, you've got skills, and at the bottom, you've got behavior. We could go onto the internet now and be like, what are the steps to learning how to ski? And we could come away from that being like, great, Nikki and Jonathan, they know the steps to skiing, but that's just knowledge. We just know the steps. Skill is then the thing that you develop by applying that knowledge. What normally gets in the way of applying that is behavior or makes you apply it really well is behavior. So if you and I went skiing and you were like, oh, I fell down, but actually it's okay because in falling down, I learned this about myself, and I was like, oh, I've fallen down. I'm never going to be able to do this. This is rubbish. So that's the same with these books. You can read a book and take the knowledge in and be like, oh, that's interesting. James Clear, who I think you've had on, you've interviewed, right?

Nikki Cross: And that's when people come away going, "Oh my God, that's an amazing concept, wow." But then they go about their lives, they don't implement it. That's the bit I do. So the way it mechanically works is for every book, for every chapter, I will read it. And although you guys can't see it on the podcast, Jonathan can, there are pages of highlights and notes. What I will do on my episodes in the private podcast is I'll be like, hey, right, so this author, Greg McKeown, in chapter two, he was speaking to us about the invincible power of choice. Here are the key concepts, but guys, here's what you need to take away and consider. Here are the behavioral changes that you need to think about making. Here's what I am taking from that. And next chapter, I'll update you on how I'm applying that in my business, right? So through these books, and Jonathan, it's so cool because one, you would think two different books, right? So we did Taming Tigers by Jim Lawless, which is all about conquering your fear and your limiting beliefs. When you layer these books, so you layer Taming Tigers, if you like, on top of The Slight Edge by Jeff Olson, which is all about compounding small efforts, it becomes this developmental space where you're like, oh my God. My actual world is changing. You guys are all hearing that change happen through me. And it's almost like this continual feedback loop of us all geeking out together and having fun and developing.

Jonathan Stark: So can I ask a few questions about what you've said so far? Okay, so when you say you read the book, you're not reading the book into the microphone and that's the episode.

Nikki Cross: No, you're not allowed to do that.

Jonathan Stark: No, I wouldn't think so. It's not audible, yeah.

Jonathan Stark: Right, so you're reading the book in advance. Do you read the whole book in advance or do you read one chapter?

Nikki Cross: Yeah.

Jonathan Stark: So weekly you read a chapter, you take notes, and then you record an episode that consists of a summary and how you think you're gonna apply it to yourself or are there other people actually on the podcast with you live?

Nikki Cross: Just me, it's just me. So what's really cool is often people will, I run it on a platform where there's a community aspect. People will chime in and be like, hey, I'm actually on a previous book. I'm on chapter two of another book that you're doing right now. So there's a back catalog of what we've covered that they can access. And they'll start saying, well, I've got a question about that or I wanna share a win. So they get involved that way, but it's all just me recording my takeaways and how I'm summarizing it and what I'm doing with it. I think a unique skill over the 20 years of learning and development is, you know, when you read in a book, Jonathan, and you get to the end of a chapter and you're like, oh God, that was good, that was really good. What's the next natural step, right? It's to move on to the next chapter, isn't it?

Jonathan Stark: To the next chapter, right.

Nikki Cross: We don't stop, exactly. It's the bridging that gap of, you both pause a second, what will you now do? How will you be changed? What will you stop doing, you know?

Jonathan Stark: Right, yeah. So how long are the episodes about roughly? Do you usually do like a half an hour?

Nikki Cross: Yeah, I mean, no longer, right? So sometimes they can just be like 10 minutes. It depends because sometimes the summary, I'm of the ethos that although it's fun to share, we're here for a reason, we want to develop. So sometimes you can get it done in 10 minutes and be like, guys, go on your way, go and take action. Other times it's a little bit chatty or a little bit longer, sometimes emotional, you know, it really does depend, but no longer than half an hour. I think that's a nice sweet spot.

Jonathan Stark: Okay, and they're weekly, is that what you said?

Nikki Cross: No.

Jonathan Stark: Okay, so how often do these episodes come out?

Nikki Cross: Yeah, well, if you think about your typical business book or personal development book, you have to break the chapter. I do one book a month, right? So my members don't have to keep up, but for me to do a book a month, you have to look at the amount of chapters and then break it down into 30 days.

Jonathan Stark: Oh, wow, okay.

Nikki Cross: So it depends on the size of the book.

Jonathan Stark: But then you squeeze it into the month?

Nikki Cross: Yeah.

Jonathan Stark: Okay, so this is a calendar, yeah.

Nikki Cross: Yeah.

Jonathan Stark: What was that inside of the cover there? Was that you or, is that part of that book or do you put that in there? Is that something you did?

Nikki Cross: So at the beginning of each book, what I'll do is I'll just put a little sticky note calendar in the beginning, that's me working out which chapters I'm gonna be releasing and when. So the book that I'm holding up at the moment is Essentialism by Greg McKeown. This is an amazing book. It's like, it's so challenging to business owners, so on topic for you. The whole, like, can we stop doing the most? Can we stop thinking it's time for money? And can we just, yeah, right?

Jonathan Stark: Yeah, a lot of people have recommended that. I do need to read it.

Nikki Cross: Yeah, so as an example, this particular book has about four episodes a week, yeah.

Jonathan Stark: Wow. Yeah.

Nikki Cross: Okay, and so you post the episode, you get it there and then they listen to it when they listen to it.

Jonathan Stark: Yeah.

Nikki Cross: And if people feel like commenting, they're.

Jonathan Stark: And you let them know in advance what the book is and is there, not an expectation, but do you feel like they get more out of the episodes?

Reading Along, Listening Along, or Both
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Jonathan Stark: When they're also reading it kind of along with you?

Nikki Cross: Do you know what? This is a huge topic in my community. People are so vastly different. I can give you specific examples.

Jonathan Stark: Well, you know when people say like, I try to read, but I just can't take it in or I try to like, you said you had like responses to your recent email.

Nikki Cross: So I would be really interested, I will answer your question about how people do it. But before I do, I will be so interested to hear what people fed back in response to that email. Like what were the themes?

Jonathan Stark: Yeah, I think I published a reply to it. I don't know if you saw it or if I didn't do it yet, but the surprising thing was how many people, well, first of all, a lot of people it seems like are still reading business books, not a huge surprise, but somewhat. And very few of them listened to them on Audible, which was interesting to me because I listened to, well, I guess it's mostly fiction. I listened to a lot of fiction on Audible or wherever, Google Play. But for business books, I'm gonna say like, I don't know, maybe 75% of the people said they get a physical book, not an e-book. And they find that they connect more with the author that way, they connect more with the material that way, they can take notes, it's easier to go back and forth and know where they are. So if they're really, especially for a book that they're really liking, they wanna have the physical copy. One person said that they'll listen to some of it and if they like it, then they'll buy the physical book and take it more seriously. It's like the more serious way to do it is the paper book like you have that stack of right there. And then there was a meaningful minority of people who liked e-books best because they're in the habit of taking notes in the e-book and then you can see them all, all the notes in like a one summary place so you can quickly refer to your notes in a separate interface, but, you know, I only got 60 replies though. That's still, that's still a decent amount of people talking about how they do it.

Nikki Cross: You know what, if you think about the difference between nonfiction and fiction, nonfiction, you're being led by a story, right? You're being led by a storyline. With nonfiction, think of what your brain has to do if it's just listening along, like you're listening. And at the same time, you're trying to think, okay, how does that apply to me specifically with my specific set of circumstances and the author's carrying on talking, but you're still trying to comprehend it. So it makes total sense. And if, if I may let you into a little secret for anyone who doesn't want to join a space like the book club, but really wants to take, like, you know, you said, like if they found a book and they're like, I really, really want to do this, just commit to the physical copy and audible. I know it sounds like a lot, but this is how I do it. If you do that at the same time, it's almost like you're being read the book. So you don't have to, you can skim it with your eyes, but then you get to write notes in the margin and pause it, pause, be quiet. Let me, let me think about this. And have you noticed how some authors like James Clear, Atomic Habits, they're bringing out workbooks?

Jonathan Stark: Yes.

Nikki Cross: It's interesting because what they're getting onto, rightly so, a learning and development professional over here massively advocates for it is of course you are, because the book is you generously pouring your best work into a capsule. And then you've got to understand, not everyone has had a 20 year career in learning and development. So your normal person is out there being like, that's amazing. How do I apply it? So, you know, it's like, well done to the authors who are then creating workbooks or building them in. You see that a lot. They build it in to the end of the chapters or whatever. But in answer to your question, right. So the, the, the carve up is you've got people like my husband who he doesn't read one page of any of these books. He doesn't listen to them. He only, and I would say, if I was to try and put a percentage on it, I would say a good solid 35% of my members, they don't even read the books. They just listen along. Maybe they'll buy the book midway or after, especially if it's something that's got a lot of diagrams in. Well, some of them are just like, I just don't need it. Then you'll get really studious types who they must do it in order. They must read the chapter. Then they'll listen to Nick's summary, right? And everything in between.

Jonathan Stark: I know it's, I mean, I see it in myself, there are different mediums that I like for different reasons and they all hit me different and I know, I know for a fact that retention on audio books for me is really low because I can go back, it's like watching a movie, it's worse than watching a movie. Like I can go back and reread a book, you know, like say a sci-fi book from six months ago and there's a bunch of stuff I forgot or missed because I'm doing the dishes and got distracted or something. So you can really revisit them a lot, which tells me that I did not, I missed a lot, I didn't retain it very well. I might get some, some high points. And if it's a business book, which I've listened to a fair share of business books, I'm usually, I usually end up with virtually no implementation. Mostly it's like, oh, that was a good insight. That was worth the price of the whole book, that one thing. And that might change my viewpoint about something, but the books that have changed me the most were definitely on paper and they're full of notes just like yours and yeah, so I don't think that's a coincidence. I think it has everything to do with the way your brain works and how people learn or how individuals learn. Yeah. What do people say? Well, how, how, I mean, is that the stack of books that you've done so far on the book club? So, I mean, that's at least 20, right?

Nikki Cross: There you go. Yeah.

Jonathan Stark: So around 20, it's a lot. So, so it's been a while. What do people, what do people find after being a member for a little while? Do they, you know, that your, your pyramid, your triangle, do they find themselves, um, implementing more than they think they would have? Is it, or does it turn more into kind of edutainment where they just like listening to you and feeling like they're learning something, but nothing ever changes?

From Edutainment to Implementation
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Nikki Cross: Yeah, such a good question. I would say firstly that what you mentioned happens a lot, and it happened to me. There's one book in this pile called "The Big Leap." It's got 216 pages, but page 11 for me, I could recite it word for word: "If you argue for your limitations, you get to keep them."

Jonathan Stark: Wow. Like, oh, that's good.

Nikki Cross: Yeah, right. And it is so the case. I am such an advocate for the moment something drops within you and you feel a visceral, "Hang on a minute. What did they just say? Say that to me again?" Or it can even be like a, "Mm, I don't like that," like a real resistance to the author. The moment you viscerally feel something, take notice of that because you've just experienced a change that you'll never go back from. You'll be forever changed. And it's like, whenever people say, "Oh, I can't get through a book," I'm like, then don't. This isn't school. You're an adult. You're in business. You don't have to be a perfect pupil. Fine, you've wasted a few quid on the book that you won't get through, but if you got what you needed on page 11, run with that, you know?

But sorry to answer your question. I think there are points in people's experience of business where they will happen once they're over the perfect pupil thing, right? Once they realize that, all right then, I don't have to be a perfect pupil. I don't have to do all of the books perfectly. Once they get over that, because it's a fairly low-cost membership, I have people in my membership who, for example, are in the wedding industry. So in the summer months, their capacity is so low energetically with what they can hold in their brain. The kids are off for summer holidays, and it's their busiest time. In that time, they will quite willingly use the book club as almost like their personal treat. It's like a personal treat, you know? Like I still feel like I'm investing in myself, and the nice little potential side benefit in those times is, "Oh my God, and you might even get something from it, like woohoo."

However, I would say the majority of people who get it, like if the question is they've been there for a good while, is it that they're really taking something from it? It's like they learn how to do it. Like I teach them to do it. By doing personal development for an extended period of time, you start to think about things in a different way. And it's sort of the side benefit of doing that work. You start to go, okay, so it's like a return on investment thing. Am I really gonna listen along to this and do nothing with it, or am I actually... it's like that, right?

Fluff, Structure, and Business Books
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Jonathan Stark: Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm fascinated by the idea. I wonder, this is a little bit of a pivot, but it's back to books in general. When I sent out that email, I was specifically wondering about page count because that was a big thing in my mind. I'm looking over at some books I've read recently, a lot of what I would consider to be fluff, you know, people telling elaborate backstories about, you know, one time in band camp and this thing happened. And three pages later, I'm like, all right, I get what you're doing. You're trying to make it more memorable and tangible, but come on, you know, and it just feels really fluffy or padded. And yes, you can't go all the way the other direction. You're just like, do this, do this, do this. Page five, you're done. Goodbye. It needs to be integrated. You need to see how the techniques are sort of integrated into actual life, you know, for a business book or a self-help kind of personal development thing and deal with objections. So I understand that it's not just like, here are the 10, here's my framework, here are the 10 rules, here's a one sheet on it, run with it. It's not going to work. But I love writing short books. Some of my favorite books are short books, and I always feel like I'm sort of allergic to anything that might seem like fluff. So I tend to err on the side of shorter books. So I'm curious, the stack of books that you're looking at, what has been your experience with books you've read recently around that sort of balance between let's call it fluff and let's call it actual insights or implementation frameworks? Is there an epidemic of fluff or is fluff gone away? What do you think is a good amount of fluff? What's a good amount of pages? Well, cause you're learning and development so that, yeah, you must think that.

Nikki Cross: Yeah, no fair question. And it's so funny because where my mind went immediately was, Oh, come on, Jonathan, like font size will dictate pages. It's so true. You can open one book and it's like, the text is tiny. And I'll be honest, like the moment I see that I get a, Oh God, like my reaction on the inside is like, Oh no. And then there's other books where if we just do a sidestep from page count just for one minute, we need to talk about structure first. Some authors, so in learning and development, you get taught the three T's. Tell them what you're going to tell them, tell them, tell them what you told them. It's just like a really lovely way for someone to be like, Hey everyone, this is how you deliver training, right? You get taught this. Hey everyone, today we're going to learn about this, A, B and C. Okay. A, B and C. Right everyone. We learn about A, B and C. Do you all get it? It's such a simple framework, but it works because people, they know what is coming and they know what to lock into. And then when you summarize it, they're like, yeah, I know. And that's a good feeling. Right? So I think the first thing to mention is some authors are very good at structure, very good at helping you to understand the context of what's coming without. And here's five examples of stories of times where they don't do it. Like James Clear's really good at that. Greg McKeown's really good at that. Then you'll get other authors who they add in so many examples, it's detracted away from the point the reader switched off. And it was funny. I was listening to you talking then about how your inner narrative goes when you're reading the fluff. And that's what I will say out loud in the private podcast. I'll be like, listen, guys, from pages 134 to 138, there's this big story about this, this and this. It's not completely irrelevant. But what the author's trying to do is this. And we're not going there. Here's what you need to know. So it's almost like a side cut of the fluff, you know? And it's nice, Jonathan, because I'm never disrespectful to the author. I'm so in awe of how someone can, like, I know you've written your own books, you take your knowledge and experience and you distill it to incredible. But what I know about my people in my world is they're big on self-agency. They're big on it. But if I want to read that story, I'll go ahead and read it. Thanks, Nick, for saying the summary and that I don't need to, but I'm actually quite interested in how he went and did the scuba diving thing. So I'm going to go there, you know?

Jonathan Stark: Yeah, right. I almost, it's funny, I wonder if anyone, an author, I mean, has ever sort of like called out the fluff, like a different color background or something, you know, like an aside, where an aside is a normal thing to see like set off differently in the type. And just be like, you know, I think the classic case is when you're, you know, you're searching the internet for a recipe and the recipe starts with like, oh, when I was little, my grandma used to make these cookies. And you know, it's like, 800 words later, you still haven't gotten to the ingredients.

Nikki Cross: Still on the cookie. Yeah, exactly.

Jonathan Stark: Yeah. And that's, that's like, I would, I would, that would be a painful critique if I wrote a book and someone was like, too much fluff. I'm like, ah, that would stab me in the heart. But you can't take it all out. It's not all just like, just do this. And it's a balance, I guess.

Nikki Cross: It is. Some of them go about it really interestingly. So this guy, Jim Lawless, there's a lot of storytelling in this book anyway, just of his experiences. But what you'll find with some authors is at the back of each chapter, there is a case study. So it's almost like this optional, okay, so that's what the chapter was, but now there's a case study. And I find that a really respectful way of doing the fluff. You know, it's in there.

Jonathan Stark: Yeah, I like that. It's optional fluff.

Jonathan Stark: Yeah, I really like that. That's the kind of thing I was hoping to hear. It's the first time I've seen that approach.

Nikki Cross: And that's why in answer to your question, I was like, can we just talk about structure first? Because it matters, right? You know, one last thing on that, I would say for anyone out there who's like, I would love to read more business books or listen to them, but I'm really struggle to get through them. You've got to remember that these people are professionals in their specific craft. They're not necessarily a professional in learning and development, which is because it's not fiction, it is a business or it is a personal development book. They might not, they might not be the best at conveying that in a structure that suits your brain's ability to turn that into action. And I think it's a lot to expect of a person.

Jonathan Stark: Right.

Nikki Cross: Be amazing at what you do and also be an amazing book writer. It's like, that's a lot.

Jonathan Stark: I know. I know. Well, I mean, that's where, where really good editors come in. That's for sure. It doesn't hurt. So what, how do you, how, who decides the book? Do you just decide what, when you want to read next? Or is it like a vote or?

Choosing Books and Integration Months
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Nikki Cross: Yeah, it is a vote. So what I'll normally do is read the room a little bit. Mechanically, from the 12th to the 19th of every month, we do a poll. Typically, there are two or three books all around the same topic, and we collectively vote on a book. How that topic is chosen is usually by me. From time to time, members will suggest topics, like last year we did Money May, a month dedicated to money mindset. Recently, a few members asked if we could do another money book since we hadn't done one in a year. My job is to collect books and decide, because I have to want to do the book too. I'm not going to put books into the poll where I think, "Oh god, I hope they don't choose that."

Jonathan Stark: Mm-hmm, yeah, that'd be rough. That's exactly what I was wondering. Do you ever get dragged into a book? The answer is no, so that's good because you only put options up that you're interested in. Say a little bit more about the themes. Is it like every month you have a different theme? Do you change the themes, or are they the same, like every May is Money May? How does it work?

Nikki Cross: Yeah, I mean, there are a couple of things that are set in stone. Every July and December, we do something called integration month. I'll take the last five books and release a summary episode on each. Then, I guide them into a month where we don't take on a new book, but they can go back to a book they've already done and explore a chapter deeper, or revisit a book if they're a new member. Those two months are protected. It's not just a month off; I'm a learning and development professional, so I guide them in how to use that month for themselves, not guided by a new book. Apart from that, people really like the alliteration of Money May. They were disappointed this year that I did one in June. They love to do a money mindset book at least once a year. It's nuanced and complex, like with everything you talk about around ditching hourly and moving into a way of working that isn't about exchanging time for money. You realize from doing that kind of mindset work that it's deep. We have deep attachments to how the world works and how we fit into it. Certain months, I get a lot of messages from people saying they've been triggered or learned new things about themselves they didn't even know existed.

Theme-wise, there are themes like habits, inner limitations, conquering your fear, goal setting. There's one book we did recently called "Fuck Being Humble" by a UK author, all about self-promotion and how to put yourself out there without sounding like a knob. We've done books on how to speak with confidence. I like to think of it as if I were in the world of work, what tools would I need in my tool belt to navigate it feeling good? As long as it fits into that umbrella, I have to make sure it's for men and women, for employed and self-employed people. You would think that's tricky, but it's really not. Some of this stuff is applicable to everyone. Who doesn't have to build new good habits and break bad old ones? Who doesn't need to manage their time better? So that's really cool.

Books as Cheap Expertise, Audio as Proof
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Jonathan Stark: The whole concept is very attractive. I wouldn't be surprised if you got a few new listeners from this audience because, I mean, it's tempting to me. It's really interesting. You said that you were inspired by someone who was doing something like this, but I've never heard of anything like this other than a traditional book club. I've done it, and as soon as they pick a book that I'm not interested in, it's like, "Eh." So this is great. I really appreciate you sharing all that information. I wonder if you're going to spawn a whole group of these things because it seems like something there should be a million of. I don't know why there's not more. Books are like the best investment ever. They're cheap. Somebody spent 20 years building up the expertise and they're putting it down in this book for 20 bucks.

Nikki Cross: Amen. It's just like, how do you get people to consume it? In this day and age, with all the demands on people's attention, it's like all the gold in these books is just locked up in there. You know what, Jonathan? I agree with every single word, and I would take that even a step further to say there is gold in you. A lot of the time, similar to your business model, I have my private high-end work, which is much more expensive. Last year, I was flown out to Amsterdam and Dublin to deliver day-long workshops, really expensive stuff. It astounds me how overlooked books are because, essentially, what you've just said is true. You've got this expert who's been doing what they do for a number of years. They're not going to plow their crap work into their book, are they? They're going to plow their best work and condense it as best they can. Not only is there gold in these books, but there's gold in you. If you let that information land in the right way and get out of your own way in the implementation of it, you will reveal things about yourself. You will change as a person, and that change will ripple out into your life and business. You'll look back 12 months later and be like, "Oh my God, everything's different. How did that happen?" It happened because you alchemized it. That's been the most eye-opening thing. I want to share this with you, Jonathan, just because it's tech and I think you'll like it. Have you heard of SpeakPipe?

Jonathan Stark: No, I don't think so.

Nikki Cross: I love it. SpeakPipe, you can get it for free or pay for it, but it's really just people can leave you a voice note. You get 90 seconds for free. I said to my members, "Look, I'm really a bit crap at doing my website and my marketing. Can you guys leave messages on SpeakPipe? I will embed them into my website so that people can hear what it's like." The whole audio experience, not only am I doing that with podcasting and the private podcast, but now my members are speaking back to me and we can share that. You can hear their experience. There's something very special about it. With AI, you were talking about this with one of your previous guests. You can get AI to write you a script, but when you are speaking something out loud, it's human, and people want human. They just want you. I think that is a very special and unique thing. Yes, we have to use technology cleverly, but we have to bring more of that to the table.

Jonathan Stark: Yeah, the whole AI thing is an interesting overlay on this conversation. It's like, what do we need books for at all anymore? If we can just go to "coach in the sky" and say, "What would James Clear say about this?" Sometimes it gives a reasonable answer, but it's just not the same thing. You're just going to stay at the top of that pyramid, and the odds of moving it into implementation and skills and behavior just seem very unlikely to me, but we'll see.

Nikki Cross: Exactly. It's actually going to give you the best answer. It's going to give you James Clear on steroids. It's going to give you the best version of James Clear's answer, but that doesn't mean that you're going to integrate it. That's the thing.

How to Find Nikki
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Jonathan Stark: Cool. We'll tell people the name of the podcast again, both podcasts and where they can find you online.

Nikki Cross: So a word of warning. It's really sweary, before you enter into the world. I actually posted a snippet of a reel on LinkedIn today just for fun to see, you know, what people would make of it. And it started by me saying, calm your tits, just calm your tits. I'm not sure the world of LinkedIn is quite ready yet, but anyway, it doesn't stop me from being booked as a speaker, which is interesting, but anyway, thank you. The podcast is called The Inner Work Conversation. That is my public podcast. You'll see me and hear me speak about everything to do with the inner work from holding yourself back, your limitations, talk a lot about time management, self-management, and then the book club is, it's not a very catchy title, but it's the Inner Work Business Book Club. And yeah, you know, I would just say that I have actually got an episode I could send to you, one specific one. I can't remember the number off the top of my head, but in that episode, I actually share step-by-step how I get the most out of these books. So perhaps if I share that with you, then your listeners can learn from that, I suppose.

Jonathan Stark: Yeah, that'd be very interesting. Cool. Well, thanks so much for sharing all that. I'm really excited. I can't wait to hear the feedback from people. I know they're going to love it.

Nikki Cross: Oh, I hope it's been helpful. And I just want to say to you specifically, Jonathan, I quit my job and then COVID happened, lockdown happened. My business plan that I had went completely out the window. And from afar, consistently and quietly, you were there with your YouTube videos and your podcasts and I have benefited from them to the point where I actually credit a lot of the success that I've had, my mindset around things and the things that I have avoided doing on purpose and have paid off big time to you. So thank, from the bottom of my heart, thank you very much, Jonathan.

Jonathan Stark: Wow, that makes my day. That's great. Well, thank you very much. Thanks again for coming on and thanks again for sharing all that. This has been great. Folks, I'm really happy to have Nikki here and I hope you check out both podcasts actually.

Nikki Cross: Thank you, Jonathan. Thank you, everyone.

Jonathan Stark: All right, folks, that's it for this week. I'm Jonathan Stark and I hope you join me again next time on Ditching Hourly. Bye.