Ditching Hourly

DH 374 Eleanor Mayrhofer
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Introduction and Guest Welcome
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Jonathan Stark: Hello, and welcome to Ditching Hourly. I'm Jonathan Stark, and today I am joined by guest Eleanor Mayor Hofer. Eleanor, welcome to the show. So I try, I wanted to try the real pronunciation.

Eleanor Mayrhofer: Thanks for having me.

Eleanor's Background and Business Model
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Jonathan Stark: so today we are gonna talk about your non hourly business model. But first, could you tell folks a little bit about who you are and what you do?

Eleanor Mayrhofer: Sure. I'm Eleanor. I'm a California Munich Help leaders, author showcase.

Jonathan Stark: Love it. Okay, so we started a conversation over email about this and, uh, I, I just love the offering that you shared with me. It's a website in a week basically, kind of thing. And, and I wanna talk about that.

Straight to Non-Hourly
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Jonathan Stark: But first, can you tell everyone if you ever build hourly, what your sort of process was, what you used to do before, and, uh, maybe how the, how that's different from now.

Eleanor Mayrhofer: No, uh, sure. But no, it never occurred to me to bill hourly, probably because I worked, you might be familiar, in your neck of the woods with, um, sapien. I worked, I kind of cut my teeth there and that was one of the original fixed time fixed price shops, and I started in. Like the 1.0 era when they were getting their European operations set up and, um, they were bolting on like creative services into their IT consulting.

So it was sort of this peanut butter chocolate model. And I, I didn't know anything. I just, I didn't know any other way, like this was, I had been doing like regular, I've been doing book compositing before that. My dad's a letter.

Jonathan Stark: Wow.

Eleanor Mayrhofer: and so. I just, from the get go, we were just, I learned about scope and project size and project management and it having to fit in and teams and things going off the rails.

Starting a Solo Business During COVID
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Eleanor Mayrhofer: but when I started this business, which I sort of avoided for a long time, and then I was kind of backed into it because I had a toddler and it was COVID and I didn't wanna contract anymore and I got a surprise tax bill and was like, well, I guess I'm starting that website business. Um, and uh. Yeah, it, I don't know, it just never occurred to me for, to bill hourly.

It was just always gonna be, I mean, that's not to say that I started with a perfect model right away. All of the, the concerns I had about, I didn't want a client-based business just because of what I had seen and as I suspected all the issues I had seen in the macro, I was finding in the, except I was responsible for all of,

Jonathan Stark: Right.

Eleanor Mayrhofer: it's.

Initial Market Approach and Challenges
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Jonathan Stark: Okay, so when you first started, and it wasn't all that long ago, if it was COVID and maybe four or five years ago, something like that, when you went solo, what was the first thing that you came to market with? Was it different?

Eleanor Mayrhofer: first it was just, you know, sending emails to friends and everybody saying, Hey, I'm doing websites now. And I got, because I had a very big network, um, I just like, was like, I don't know, I guess I'll do it for 1500 bucks. Like, you know, I just didn't think it through and then I realized. It was difficult because a lot of the people I were getting were friends of contacts and suddenly I was realizing like, this is not sustainable.

Uh, and I have to find a, a better way. 'cause things were like scope, even though I knew about managing scope, it's much harder to do when you're the only person doing it. Um, and these were people I knew and it was getting really awkward and difficult and I realized I need to find a better model. And there was, I had a coach at the time and a couple, this was very.

Fashionable. It still is. Was this like done in a day model?

Developing a Productized Service
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Eleanor Mayrhofer: Um, but I think in retrospect what I was confused about is they were sort of, this was sort of VIP days, which is just like, you book me for nine hours and we do whatever you want. And then it took me a while to kind of understand that's I, I do and did offer that, but that, that's different than a productized service, which is essentially just fixed scope fixed.

Jonathan Stark: Right, right.

Eleanor Mayrhofer: So, um, so then I sort of worked my way into the.

Jonathan Stark: Cool. Okay. So what does it look like now? So what's your part, your main offer now?

Current Business Model: Website in a Week
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Eleanor Mayrhofer: Well, I don't do the websites in a day anymore for a few reasons, but now it's a website in a week, and the, the way that works is, um, well first we have, you know, I have a discovery call and I get a lot of information and a discovery call. Um. And then we kick it off with kind of a strategy call where I understand what the person's goal is.

With the website, there's sort of a few buckets. Like some people, they just, they are just embarrassed and they wanna uplevel and they'll say, very frankly, I just need a calling card and I can't, I'm like not referring people to my site because it's so outdated. It doesn't have anything to do with what I'm do.

Then I have another group that I sort of called. WordPress refugees, not to throw shade on WordPress, but they just can't manage their site, so I kind of just figure out what they need or what they want, and then we have a copy call and I interview them, and then I go away for a day and a half and I, there is a small intake form, which I've cut down to about 20% of what it used to be because I don't have them write their copy anymore and I

Client Interaction and Project Scope
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Jonathan Stark: me, the quick question though, is that first discovery call, is that a paid thing or is that a sales call?

Eleanor Mayrhofer: a sales call.

Jonathan Stark: Okay. So they say, great, this sounds good. Here's the price. You give 'em a price, the price is on your website.

Eleanor Mayrhofer: on my website.

Jonathan Stark: so before they even get on a call with you, they know how much it's gonna be. They know how long it's gonna take, and they understand what the, what they get.

Eleanor Mayrhofer: Yeah, usually sometimes there's things like, oh, and I need a newsletter. I need all these things. I'm like, oh, okay, we can do that. But that's not part, that's like the base price and all of that. Um, but usually it's pretty straightforward. Or there's like, so I'm gonna be on the first page of Google and it's like, well, that's another thing too.

So there's sometimes there's a little education going on, but it's pretty straightforward.

Jonathan Stark: Okay. So they say, great, this sounds good. Swipe their credit card and the first thing you do is, uh, take all of your notes and start to do some research or something. Or do

Eleanor Mayrhofer: First thing they get an intake and that is, it used to be this long pro, like this long thing. I was really proud of it and in retrospect, I just like killed the whole thing. Uh, but it's like the minimal amount of information I need. So I do have them make a mood board so I can kind of get the vibe they're going for.

Jonathan Stark: How do they do that?

Eleanor Mayrhofer: I give them a few different options. They can either use Pinterest, I have a little training around it. They can throw a bunch of pictures in a Google Doc. I try to not force anybody into like my process and just make it as easy as possible. I also have like a Canva template. They can put a few pictures in.

Um. I, from a style perspective, I sort of think of myself as a, a seasoned studio musician. So I'm not trying to like, you know, I, sure I'm somewhere on the spectrum of style, but, um, I just wanna find out. I know what they like and why, and sometimes it's very clear and sometimes it's sort of disparate, but it helps me get into their head.

Um, and then what I do ask for is if they have any testimonials or emails or any, anything they've gotten from their clients or whoever their audience is that really nails like keys into the messages that they hear over and over and over. So like, um, that kind of stuff. So customer voice type stuff.

Jonathan Stark: Yep.

Eleanor Mayrhofer: Just like, you know, do you have a rl?

Do you have a hosting? Just, you know, just the basic stuff I need to help.

Jonathan Stark: Okay, so, so you're not specialized on WordPress or Squarespace or anything in particular?

Eleanor Mayrhofer: I do, I do only use Squarespace for a couple of reasons, and I used to kind of align more with the platform, but I've downplayed that. Um, but the reason I do is mostly because I just, I looked at Webflow and I started doing like WordPress and Shopify, but in the end, I really just wanted to be able to hand people the keys and have them be able to manage things themselves.

And for now, Squarespace is, in my view, the best tool for that.

Jonathan Stark: Yeah, I agree. Yep. Okay, so, so you're getting, basically, you're getting some customer voice, you're getting some vibes about what you think they're gonna like. Do you. Ask them about, so like if they, if they have like a particular taste, I don't say they're into d and d and they want to have like dragons and stuff, but they're like an accountant, like do you have that kind of problem or are they mostly more on the boring side and what they like is going to align with their goals?

Or do you ever have to kind of like talk 'em off a ledge?

Eleanor Mayrhofer: That's never happened before. I do think, you know, my own website and my style, I mean, I have case studies and portfolios, but that also speaks like if somebody was really into dragons and like doing so, they probably wouldn't hire me just by the look of my stuff. Um, and I, yeah, I'd probably try and talk them down from

Jonathan Stark: I'm exaggerating a little, but like, sometimes people's personal taste doesn't really align with the, you know, the bait they should be using to catch the fish they want, you know.

Eleanor Mayrhofer: Most people just wanna look professional.

Jonathan Stark: Okay. Okay. So, alright, great. So, um, what does that look, what happens next? So you've got, you've got that input and then, then you're like, okay, let me play around with some things.

Eleanor Mayrhofer: Yeah, no, not even then.

Copywriting and Strategy Sessions
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Eleanor Mayrhofer: So then, I mean, now I know stuff and stuff's percolating in the back of my head, but then we kick off on Monday with a strategy call and that's strategy slash copy call. So I do wanna understand like what their marketing plan is like, and if they've even thought about it. And who they're trying to attract and what their positioning is.

There's a couple questions around that, but not too much. And then, um, because sometimes there's things like some people are like, I don't, I'm full, I don't need clients. That's not an issue. Or some are not interested in doing a big marketing thing, but they do need to collect some data. So they're like little things we can do, like set up some filters on their, uh, contact page to make sure they're getting the right kind of people and connect to Google Doc.

The, you know, quote unquote CRM, just so they kind of have a running log. But there are little things you can do and there's big things you can do. So, um, and sometimes in rare instances, SEO does make sense, so I'll think about that a little bit more. So I kind of wanna just know what the, the marketing goals are.

Um, and then I go into a copy interview. So I have a framework of questions I ask, um, based on what they're trying to do, and I basically interview them.

Jonathan Stark: Yeah, that was part of our original conversation, which was that that. Sometimes a web project like, oh, I need a new website. And then they sit down to do it and it's like turns into this identity crisis because I don't know what I do. I know, I know what I do, but I don't know how to say it. And, and I know I help people and they pay me, but I don't really know what they're getting at it.

So it can, so how is this the, the phone call where you try and get that kind of information out of them? Like how do you walk them through that panic attack of, I've been doing this for 20 years, but I don't actually know what I do.

Eleanor Mayrhofer: Yeah, I mean, I think people do and they can talk about it in a conversation. This is, this was, I kind of had an aha moment, um, several projects ago. Well, it was leading up to several aha moments, but. I just realized when I talked to people and calls, they would say, well, you know what I really do is this and people trust me about it.

And they tell me like all the things and just headline after great headline. And then I'd say, okay, now here's my copy collection process. And I was, like I said, very proud of this. I had engineered, and then they'd sit down and write and it would be stiff and professional, and they wouldn't, it wouldn't be all the things they told me.

Um, I had one client and he, he has a, he, uh, has a license to. This huge erritory in North America and he said, you know, I wanna get, I wanna stress the importance, put a section importance that it was like you, not a very exciting couple of paragraphs about that coming through. And so talking, luckily I had my.

I said, well, tell me more. And he was like, you cars have not been allowed in here since 1974. There's animal security. You wouldn't believe it was the whole thing. And I was just like, tell me more, tell me more. And that was like, what you need to put on the site. So I just realized this whole thing of, um, trying to drag it out, you know, and they're experts in what they do.

They're just not website copywriters and they don't know Yeah. How to sit down and write it. So.

Jonathan Stark: How long does that take, usually?

Eleanor Mayrhofer: The interview,

Jonathan Stark: Yeah.

Eleanor Mayrhofer: 90 minutes to two hours. It goes really fast

Jonathan Stark: Mm-hmm.

Eleanor Mayrhofer: if you know the right questions to write.

Jonathan Stark: Right. So you're, so you're recording that. Are you also taking like crazy amounts of notes or do you go back

Eleanor Mayrhofer: my AI note taker is I have a whole transcript

Jonathan Stark: Okay. And then you go back and sort of pick through it? Or do you use AI to pick through it?

Eleanor Mayrhofer: I pick through it. I structure the interview in a way that I have like markers in the conversation and that's why I have the marketing conversation because I know what need, what I need for the site and where it needs to go and like if certain pages are gonna be more important. And that helps guide the interview process.

So I'm interviewing almost to how I'm gonna lay out the website so I have all the information. And sometimes in the process of designing it, I'll move things around. Um. I used to do it where I would like sit with the transcript, go through all massage. The copy obviously easier now.

Jonathan Stark: Hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Mm. Okay. So I don't know if, well, how far into the process are we at this point?

Eleanor Mayrhofer: So we are into probably like day one and day two. So we have this interview. Usually I get about everything I need and then I can, I have, I mean, I'm just telling you my whole process here, but basically I have a, it's been a long time now and I have a pattern library, and so I put together the site and then a lot of it, funnily enough, sometimes. The time is finding the right images. If the client doesn't have the, like I say, and it's a hundred percent true, you can come to me with nothing but a good headshot and I can put together a good website for you. Um, but I did a project this summer and it was for an advisory. It's here in Germany and they do, they help open up markets in Africa to the German speaking countries.

And so. It didn't itt an n like.

Jonathan Stark: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's interesting because I, I have another interview, uh, with someone who does AI photo shoots, and so, 'cause I, it's photos have been in the past when I would, I've done my website a few times over the years and photos were always the big blocker. It wasn't the headlines of copy or any of that, but it was always getting good photos.

And, and that I know from talking to a lot of different, uh, web designers, that can be a huge blocker. They're like, oh yeah, as soon as I get, as soon as my headshots are done, I'm looking for a photographer. We're gonna set up a shoot and then I'll get back to you and we can finally do the website project.

Um, so I, I, I am not surprised to hear that you have this sort of like, as long as you have a headshot, we can do your website and, uh. And perhaps it might be interesting to consider doing something with AI to, even if that was a roadblock, uh, it's, it's possible to get around that without going through thousands of stock photos.

You can actually make stuff that's realistic and cool looking and anyway, however you feel about that. So, so photos can, can take up a lot of time. I don't want to.

Handling Project Scope and Client Expectations
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Jonathan Stark: Skip over the rest of your process, but I do want to ask about scope because the, what you're describing sounds very flexible. It sounds like it could go in lots of different directions.

It sounds like there, you've mentioned a couple of very different kinds of clients so far, and product I service, it needs to be scoped pretty tightly. So are you, uh, how do you do that? How do you, how do you, what do you say no to? And, and like, what is the promise? How many pages do they get? Or you've mentioned SEO and all, you know, how many features and like, I want a scorecard generator in a chat bot, and,

Eleanor Mayrhofer: The, the, the advisory client that was a custom engagement. So that wasn't a website in a week, but the, the, the hunter and the, the, um, well that was, that was, um, so the scope is very straightforward. It's like. All your copy, six pages and you know, launching it. So doing all the domain connection and all that stuff.

So it doesn't lend itself to a lot of customization. Um, you know, I think the trick with productized services is. Maybe 65% like fit perfectly into the productize and the rest, you kind of have to tweak or decide. Sometimes I just decide like, am I gonna charge an extra thing? Like no I'm not, or you know, like that's one more page.

And if it's a simple page I can put together, I'm not charging extra for that. But you know, I have all the scope listed on the sales page, so that's sort of the boundary. And I rarely had, I think I've had maybe two or three projects where they sort of went out off the rail. This is like outta 40, um, where there weren't expectations met and things didn't go the way as planned.

Jonathan Stark: Uhhuh, what do you do in a case like that? Do you just say like, ah, lesson learned. I'll work until they're happy, or money back or, uh, prorated something

Eleanor Mayrhofer: one, one project. Actually, I have a blog post about this, um, one project. We just, I don't know the, the expectations were really mismatched and, and with some clients, I think. A website can be a very psychological process. It's like you're getting ready for your closeup and, um, I just try to be human with people and I just said, look, you're not satisfied.

I'm frustrated. Why don't we do this? I'll meet you halfway. And I think I did another design day and charge 50%. And we were, and it felt good to both of us and I. It, you know, we got it off back on track, um, another time. The only other time was just like somebody, and this again rarely happens. Um, but the person just didn't show up to meetings and didn't do.

Their pre-work and everything and then was just like not productive in the session and I can't, this a long time. I can't even, I did, I think I just said like working.

Jonathan Stark: Hmm. Yeah, the, I, the reason I wanted to sort of drag you through that is because, uh, it. It really freaks people out when the, the idea of a a, a fixed price of any kind, even a productized service, it freaks people out. 'cause they imagine all the ways that it could go off the rails and all the times that projects in an hourly basis have gone over budget and they can't believe that, you know, um, that it wouldn't go horribly every time.

So the two things I want to emphasize here are that it hardly ever happens.

Eleanor Mayrhofer: Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Stark: And when it does, you just work it out and it's fine. It's not that big a deal. It's nothing to worry about.

Eleanor Mayrhofer: Yeah.

Jonathan Stark: okay, so. The scope is, uh, defined well on your site. So if somebody brings something up and you're like, that's, you know, chat bot, we're not doing a chat bot and like ingesting all of your past podcast episodes and having like a digital twin of you.

Um, but what happens when someone comes along and they do want something more elaborate? Are you like, nah, I, I, I'd rather hand them off to someone else who does that on a regular basis, or would you put together like a custom scope

Eleanor Mayrhofer: Then I put together a proposal and um, I sort of have a lot of filters on my consult booking page. So I sort of say, what, you know, what are you interested in? And lots of times it's funny, they don't really look at your website, so they're like, I don't know, understand it, which is okay, but a lot of that's clarified and the discovery call and sometimes.

You can tell a lot by the way, somebody fills in a form. So if I'm like, you know, take a, take a look at this, this is what I do and this is that project, and these tend, tend to run, you know, starting at this price or, you know, so, but when I ha if I, yeah, if I get a feeling that this is gonna be more complicated, then I'm like, yeah, I'll put together a proposal.

Jonathan Stark: Hmm. Okay, cool.

Marketing and Client Acquisition
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Jonathan Stark: How do you get the word out about what you're doing? Obviously you come on podcasts and talk about it. Um, but what are some other things you do? Because it sounds, I mean, you, you haven't been in business that long, few years, 40, you mentioned 40 clients or something like that, so that. You know, that's pretty solid. Where do these people come from? Is it, uh, do you have a particular funnel or is it just networking?

Eleanor Mayrhofer: Well, it started, I did have a pretty broad and deep network for my time at s Sapient. Um, and then I contracted for years at agencies around town. So that, that was helpful. But then I just got on LinkedIn. I have say LinkedIn was really helpful and now it's at the point where a lot of just referrals and repeat business

Jonathan Stark: Oh, really repeat business.

Eleanor Mayrhofer: Yeah. Um, like a client, sometimes they come later for marketing stuff. Um, I'm kind of like, what I'm trying to do more of, there's this awkward spot where somebody, they really don't have the bandwidth to do marketing and there's a lot of education I have to do. Like this is just step one. Like if you want to get more, you have to, you know, find something that works.

And I very much have a kind of right fit philosophy. It doesn't. Social media, it doesn't have, you know, let's find something you'll just do

Jonathan Stark: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Something that you won't reject out of hand.

Eleanor Mayrhofer: exactly. Um, and that's really different for a lot of people. I'm often surprised. Um, and then yeah, the, some, a client just said, it's time for a refresh.

Um, and yeah. And then clients just refer me to other people.

Jonathan Stark: Hmm. Cool. Does it say on your client's websites who did the website? Like can they,

Eleanor Mayrhofer: I, I kind of never really do that. I, I probably should, but I don't know. And there, there's nothing wrong with doing that. It doesn't, I always am like hesitant to ask. So, but I do have probably my most prize mailing list is my client mailing list.

Client Commissions and Referrals
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Eleanor Mayrhofer: And I do offer clients commissions for referrals.

Jonathan Stark: Oh, okay. Cool.

Eleanor Mayrhofer: um, they forget that, and I remind them and they're always like, oh, okay.

And oftentimes they take it in work. So I give them the in.

Jonathan Stark: okay. Cool.

Subscription Maintenance Services
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Jonathan Stark: Are there any, do you offer any subscription kind of maintenance type things? I know some other Squarespace, I know some people that use Squarespace that aren't technical, and even though Squarespace is probably the easiest one to use, they still will get jammed up on things.

Eleanor Mayrhofer: I would listen to many podcasts and was like very seduced by this concept for a while. And I think I took, I like bought what's his Brett's design. I brought his

Jonathan Stark: design

Eleanor Mayrhofer: and then I just realized I am not the kind of person, I don't want people in my inbox all the time. And that one of the my Es of.

Like lifestyle and wealth and happiness is just control of my time. I do have, uh, like marketing, like fixed scope, marketing retainer. So if somebody says, I, I'm gonna have, you know, I'll interview you, we'll make a post, turn it into newsletter and just do that once a month. But they have to do a website with me first because I don't. 95% of my clients are moved right onto my client email list. But um, yeah, I just decided that's.

Jonathan Stark: Okay. And what about.

Positioning and Target Audience
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Jonathan Stark: What about positioning? You kind, you didn't explicitly talk about this too much, but how, how much do you get into it with people about, you know, who their target is, what the promise is? Or is it, is it more like are, is it a mix? Like are some websites like really targeted at a particular audience, but other ones that you do for people are much more like a business card?

I think you said.

Eleanor Mayrhofer: Yeah, um, my, some clients really do know this and they have it pretty dialed in when they come to me, and some are a little fuzzier on it, and my goal is to get them launched with a good enough positioning statement.

Jonathan Stark: Mm. Okay.

Eleanor Mayrhofer: I do believe there is kind of a psychological hurdle to just launching, and once we do that, I have a post somewhere called, your website launch is not your wedding day.

Like you can it, you can refine it. It's not static and. This is what I, this is kind of why I moved to this model.

Overcoming Launch Procrastination
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Eleanor Mayrhofer: There's something I'm calling the three Ps, which is, um, positioning perfectionism and procrastination. And that is what stops people from launching. And so my goal is just to help them move through all that and get something, you know, I just did one of these websites in a week and this person, she's still in like a.

Role in her corporate job, but she sort of wants to gradually move into coaching people. But it's, it's something she's nursing on the side. She doesn't have any urgency around it at all, but she was like, people are asking me, I need to have send them somewhere. And a lot of it was about. Balancing her like deep chops in corporate, but with a more kind of intuitive meditation, for lack of a better term, woo aspect.

And so we worked on that a little bit and um, you know, it's not a, it's what we came up with. It, it nails what she's doing, but it's not like gonna win any copywriting

Jonathan Stark: Uhhuh,

Eleanor Mayrhofer: It

Jonathan Stark: right?

Eleanor Mayrhofer: does.

Jonathan Stark: Mm-hmm. No, I like that. I like that point of like, just get it launched. You can iterate it. You know, you can't steer a parked car. It's like, get it, get it rolling. It's like, uh, I like that. Getting them through the procrastination. 'cause I, I certainly, well, I guess, I mean, this is a good question for you.

Client Collaboration and Revisions
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Jonathan Stark: Like, does it happen where, you know, you sort of go into your cave, you do your thing, you come back, uh, maybe it's a, a day or two of work and they're like, oh, this is. This is not what I expected, or I like, now that I see it, I can't bring myself to put this out there. Or you stay well within those guardrails, so you're, you basically know you're gonna not have a ton of revisions because you're basing it so much on that first interview.

Eleanor Mayrhofer: Yeah, you know, I was really scared of that in the beginning. Um, and it just doesn't happen that often. It's not that it never happens, but it just doesn't happen that often. Um, I think there's, you know, for two reasons, if you get the right information. That helps you kind of know where you're going directionally.

Um, and I dunno, for lack of a better, it's just confidence. I know what I'm doing and I'm not, um, I'm, I think that gets somehow communicated through the process and it's their own word. So like in this one with the, the vp, we were, you know, by the time we launched it was maybe 85% there. So like back in the process.

So Wednesday.

Jonathan Stark: Mm-hmm.

Eleanor Mayrhofer: I show her the site and we spend two hours wordsmithing things on each page, maybe swapping out a couple of images. And then I have the, the fourth day is just sort of a, like a just in case day in case I do need to make more revisions or I did somehow miss the mark. That can happen. So I don't like just say like, alright, take it or leave it.

You know, there has to be some buffer. And then the final day is just a training session. I give everybody like custom tutorials. You know, we go on a test drive together and

Jonathan Stark: Mm-hmm.

Eleanor Mayrhofer: wrap up and show them how the whole thing works.

Jonathan Stark: Cool. That's great.

Technical Setup and DNS Challenges
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Jonathan Stark: So are you like setting up, I forget how it works. You have to, you have to mess with their DNS, like,

Eleanor Mayrhofer: It is not sometimes.

Jonathan Stark: yeah,

Eleanor Mayrhofer: Um, but I, but it's doable. Um, now usually it's pretty easy to connect if they don't, like, if they don't have it. URL or domain, that's almost better because then we can just do it as part of the process. But lots of times it's hosted, but if it's hosted at one of the main people, you can connect it.

And it's just what I don't like to touch as people's email, so I have to communicate. I'm like, that's it. Like I still ask my husband to do that stuff. I can't help you.

Jonathan Stark: Yeah. That scares me too.

Eleanor Mayrhofer: yeah. Oh, really? That's good to know.

Jonathan Stark: Yeah. I don't like, email is a black box to me.

Eleanor Mayrhofer: MX Records, I, I

Jonathan Stark: like, don't touch it. Yeah. That's arcane, that's that's more neckbeard than I ever was. So, okay. So, and then that's that. So day, the Friday, you're like, all right, take you through the training session.

It's all linked up. Domains, names propagate pretty quickly these days, so they're like, woo-hoo, I've got my new website. Is there.

Eleanor Mayrhofer: I mean, actually if everything is good on Wednesday, I do that on Wednesday in case there are problems with propagation or whatever. But, um, I really, and I emphasize this from the beginning, like, I'm really gonna push you to launch. Sometimes another thing that will happen is it's not like that I miss the mark, they're not happy, but a client will get really fixated on like 47 shades of blue.

I have to like reel that in and say this, it matters, but it really doesn't matter.

Jonathan Stark: Yeah.

Eleanor Mayrhofer: You know? And that, and it's something else. It's something, again, it's like some psychological thing that's, it's not about the, but it's, it becomes a stumbling.

Jonathan Stark: yeah. I've had people that are like, like, oh, you know, I, I don't want to, um, launch it until some other event takes place, like some other, and I don't mean an event, but I mean, like, uh, like some, they're, they're like blocking themselves mentally because there's social media campaign isn't ready and, you know, it's just like, just tick this off.

Get it up there. No one's gonna go to it.

Eleanor Mayrhofer: Yeah.

Jonathan Stark: You know what I mean?

Eleanor Mayrhofer: Like have, you know, take solace in the fact there's not gonna be a tsunami of traffic. The

Jonathan Stark: yeah, yeah. People are not sitting around waiting for something to browse on the internet and like Oh, good. A new website. Yeah. I, I'm, I'm big on that too. So then after the Friday, do you have, just, I'm just curious about your process.

Post-Launch Support and Testimonials
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Jonathan Stark: Is there a follow up process? Do you have like a testimonial request process?

Is that all real casual?

Eleanor Mayrhofer: Yeah, I, they, 30 days of email support and like loom is, you know, one of the must have tools, uh, in my toolbox. Um, so stuck in inevitably there's like some, a link was broken or something. So yeah, obviously I'll fix that. Or if they try and do something, um. The first thing I do is make screenshots. So if they get creative, I have like a record of outlook when I want it.

Jonathan Stark: that's a, that sounds like a hard one. Uh,

Eleanor Mayrhofer: yes. Um, and I do like, you know, I have a bunch of. It's backup up in air quotes, like the section, so if they do something and can't find their way back, we, it's, you know, we can renew it pretty easily. Um, and then, yeah, I use a StoryBrand framework. I, you know, send them a five question questionnaire about their experience and.

Jonathan Stark: Mm-hmm. Okay. And. The referral thing, do you tell them about the referral?

Eleanor Mayrhofer: Um, no. I probably should, I probably should be like more proactive about that. But in, I sent my client email list I send out every other month or maybe once a quarter, and it's more just like, here are things with Squarespace, here's what I'm thinking about marketing. I do a little client highlight, like a project I'm working on or, or shout outs because a lot of my clients are doing stuff, so I like to shout out like.

A book or running a workshop or whatever. Um, and I just have like a standard thing. Don't forget, I, if you're on this list, I want more clients like you and if you my way, so just gentle

Jonathan Stark: That's cool. No, I like that. Yeah. Yeah. That's pretty chill.

Eleanor Mayrhofer: Yeah.

Jonathan Stark: Cool.

Pros and Cons of Productized Services
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Jonathan Stark: So what would you say to people who are thinking about offering some kind of a productized service? And there's lots of different kinds. The kind that you just described is like, I would, I would consider like the canonical style of fixed scope, non-recurring.

You don't have any recurrence of anything. It's classic, it's like a price on your website for a fixed scope of work and deliverables and an and an outcome. Basically, like you're gonna have a Squarespace site that you're proud to share with people by the end of this week. It's pretty straightforward. So what could you say to people that are, have, maybe, maybe they've been doing hourly, maybe they're doing custom projects, and what could you tell 'em about maybe the pros and cons or, uh, for people that haven't experienced it?

Eleanor Mayrhofer: Um, I guess it is just, you know, you'll be doing, you won't have billable work, so you do have to kind of know what you're doing in terms of scoping it. So don't you have to be pretty clear about your communication about what people are getting. So that's why I have those discovery calls and I walk through people.

I don't ever assume they've read the sales

Jonathan Stark: Yeah. They

Eleanor Mayrhofer: so I have to do that. And, um, that solves like 80% of any potential issues. It's just being very clear about what the offer is. And sometimes you do have to say like, well, you know, have some scripts in your back pocket when somebody wants something that's outta scope. Um, but it's business, you know, and I like my clients. And so sometimes, again, like you just have to make the decision on the fly. And I, you know, my, it's like my internal, uh, resentment meter. And if I don't mind doing something that's not to say, like, it can be that I don't, I don't wanna, some, some clients are very cognizant of the scope of things.

Jonathan Stark: Hmm.

Eleanor Mayrhofer: And we'll say like, well it's, that wasn't really, I'm like, it's fine. You know, we can, it's not gonna take me much time and it's works from what we're doing and others aren't. And then they do say like, oh, wouldn't it be cool to have a chat bot? And then you have to say, um, you know, that's, or they'll show you some site that's clearly a 30 K site.

It's like, well they had drone photo. Like, we're not gonna be able to do that engagement. And you just have to get comfortable. Um. Communicating those things and most people are fine when they un understand that. Um, and you also don't have the benefit of recurring revenue, so a, that you're doing a lot of sales.

So that's one thing. But I just think there are, um, I was talking to a friend who's an architect in LA and he's starting to do plans for people whose house is burned down.

Jonathan Stark: Hmm.

Eleanor Mayrhofer: I just thought, Ooh, I don't know much about architecture, but that just seemed like ripe for a productized to offer to

Jonathan Stark: Right. Right.

Eleanor Mayrhofer: uh, and I'm sure the people who need the service don't know exactly what they need, but he can figure out. Because sometimes it's just you understand better. I mean, the client knows what they need. Yes. Um, but I think in our email exchange you said, you know, I was point out, you called the website the inciting event. And I call it the presenting symptom

Jonathan Stark: Yeah, write

Eleanor Mayrhofer: because sometimes it is just what they think it's, but sometimes it's not.

Like they'll say, well, I need more clients. And it's like, well, the website alone is not going to do that. That's a part of that process perhaps, but what you really have is like a marketing problem. Um, so it's about really understanding. That's why a lot of my clients and my projects, I think go pretty, pretty well is because they kind of understand what they need and what they're getting.

And then the sales call, I tend determine if that's gonna.

Sales Process and Lead Time
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Jonathan Stark: So what about lead time? When somebody sets up a call like that, it's, I assume it's pretty much outta the blue. And you just get a notification from your website or somebody refers someone, it's like, boom. A like a lead popped into my inbox. What's the, what's the, the sort of sales window from that happening to them?

Giving you a yes or a no?

Eleanor Mayrhofer: Uh, it's pretty quick. Um.

Jonathan Stark: about nine months here, right?

Eleanor Mayrhofer: No, no, no, no. It's weeks. Some, some bigger clients, it's longer For custom engagements, it's usually longer if I've written a proposal. But for the productized for the website in a week, it's like people are like, Uhhuh, uh uh, okay, let's do it or no, or whatever. But it's a pretty quick decision.

Jonathan Stark: And how, and how, if you just had to guess, how many of these sales calls do turn into a client, you know, percentage wise?

Eleanor Mayrhofer: Maybe 60%.

Jonathan Stark: Okay. So the, the thing that I'm calling out for people, if not explicitly, but is that usually for productized service, the sales. The level of effort of the sale is really low because, you know, it's like, it's like one conversation, maybe a short one.

Maybe it's, uh, maybe it's a, a brief email exchange, but it's not like these deals that will go like three quarters and like you send out a proposal and they're like, oh, we've got a blocking project, or We lost our funding, and then we'll get back to you in the spring. And it's, it's not really, usually it's not like that.

And it sounds like that's your experience too.

Eleanor Mayrhofer: absolutely. I have a few bigger project proposals out now and they've had them one out and I keep saying like, I don't wanna spam you if you've gone in another direction. No hard feelings then. No, no, no. And it's sort of, I mean, they're great because a bigger project you can like feast on that longer and it's, you know, a bigger project.

Um. But I do appreciate the rapidity of the productized offer.

Jonathan Stark: Yeah.

Long-Term Plans and Project Juggling
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Jonathan Stark: So do you see yourself, I mean, what's your long-term plan do you think, you know, if you had to, if you had to say, right now is the product I service a means to an end to get to pay the surprise tax bills while you get larger, you know, feast projects or do the feast projects, stress you out when you get them.

But they're good money, you know, some people don't like being on long projects.

Eleanor Mayrhofer: Well, when I say long project, I mean like two months. Um, so I mean, I, I don't, I think I, I don't have the temperament. I think that that was just what my, uh, scars from being on, like those long, long engagements that they'd be, yeah. Um. You know, I like the variety, if I'm being honest. I worked with a client and we were working, we did a lot of strategy work for three months, and then we did a custom engagement that was over two months, and it was really not, I was like, I just gotta reach out to her because we were together for six months.

Like, and it, the, the website part of it only took two months. But that was a, it was a pleasure. To work on that project. And it really, and she sent me like once it was live and she started, we did like a marketing piece and she started doing some stuff on LinkedIn and you know, she sent me a WhatsApp I can get put on my website where it's like, and the person said from my website, I'm the exact person and it was her avatar and all.

And that's very gratifying, you know? And um, yeah, so I don't have a good answer for that. I kind like.

Jonathan Stark: Mm-hmm. That's cool.

Eleanor Mayrhofer: It's just the timing sometimes is tricky. Uh, because if this, like one project that I lands, then I need to devote a lot of my time to that. And so you kind of have to juggle sales calls and some people have a lot of urgency and then you have to make a call like, could I do this? And the bigger project.

So you kind of have to do a lot of, um, you know, traffic guessing and sometimes that's a little tricky.

Jonathan Stark: Yeah, that's true. So I, I guess we should wrap up, but I, I wanted to kind of bring up the last classic objection to productized services and get your opinion about it.

Avoiding Boredom with Productized Services
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Jonathan Stark: But a lot of people are afraid they're gonna get bored doing the same thing over and over again. And is that. Is I, I think that's, I think every client is so different that even when it's the same scope, every time you're getting a, it's very different still.

It's still a service that you're delivering, like a hands-on high touch service. You just sold it like a product. So, um, you know, not to leave the witness too much, but do you get bored just doing, you know, if you did like 10 of these in a row, would you be bored of it?

Eleanor Mayrhofer: No, my secret tagline is, um, I work with people I wanna sit next to at a dinner party.

Jonathan Stark: Yeah.

Eleanor Mayrhofer: like I told you, like this, this advisory project for people opening up African markets. And the guy leading these like hunting tours with SAP phones in Canada and uh, VP in hr. Like it's, there's some similarities.

That's, it took me a long time. My positioning, I mean, I feel like many people are continually, it's like a lifelong project, but I just realized they're all experts. One a client in London, this guy argued in front of the British Supreme Court, like it's always interesting.

Jonathan Stark: Yeah.

Eleanor Mayrhofer: I every project.

Jonathan Stark: Cool. I love it. Alright.

Conclusion and Contact Information
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Jonathan Stark: This has been great, Eleanor. Thanks so much for joining me.

Eleanor Mayrhofer: Thanks for having me.

Jonathan Stark: Where can people go to find out more about what you're doing? Maybe sign up to get a website done or refer you to someone else? I.

Eleanor Mayrhofer: They can go to my name, eleanor com. That's e lnm, aecom. And uh, I have some special treats at my website. Ditching,

Jonathan Stark: Oh, cool. That's very, you're so prepared. Very impressive.

Eleanor Mayrhofer: well, it's not live yet. I'm hoping you're not publishing this tomorrow, but it.

Jonathan Stark: Okay, cool. All right, folks. That's it for this week. I'm Jonathan Stark, and I hope you join me again next time for Ditching Hourly. Bye.